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[~zshlyk@gateway/tor-sasl/intcat] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:04 -!- intcat [~zshlyk@gateway/tor-sasl/intcat] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 17:05 < puff> Good evening. 17:06 < puff> I'm trying to understand sidechains better. I said earlier that as far as I could tell, they seem like glorified payment channels (which is not to dismiss their value) but then somebody said that's all wrong. I'm still trying to figure it out, but few of the sources I've read present a significantly different explanation from that. 17:07 < puff> I mean sure, maybe they're not exactly like payment channels, but they're pretty damn close, at least in what I've read so far. 17:07 < sipa> Perhaps explain what you think the similarity with payment channels is? 17:07 -!- oleganza [~oleganza@198-27-130-210.static.sonic.net] has quit [Quit: oleganza] 17:07 -!- mn3monic [~xxwa@unaffiliated/mn3monic] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 17:08 < kanzure> puff probably means a sidechain where the bitcoin miners aren't participating? 17:08 -!- oleganza [~oleganza@199-188-193-243.PUBLIC.monkeybrains.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 17:09 < sipa> At least technically speaking they're very different. 17:10 < sipa> Perhaps the type of thing they could accomplish is similar, based on what your goals are. 17:10 < sipa> But that's hard to say without knowing where you're coming from. 17:12 < puff> sipa: Okay, well, let me use a metaphor... here's an obvious, but very not-cryptocurrency way to do it: set up an go-between website (I want to call this an exchange but I'm not certain how exchanges actually operate, whether they merge incoming transactions or just maintain effectively separate wallets for each of their user, etc). 17:12 < puff> So you send money to an address that belongs to the go-between site, then you and somebody else use whatever private transaction mechanism via the go-between site. 17:13 -!- oleganza [~oleganza@199-188-193-243.PUBLIC.monkeybrains.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 17:13 < puff> Now obviously that sucks, in terms of security, etc. 17:13 < kanzure> sidechains aren't just escrow 17:13 < puff> Right. As I said, that was a metaphor. 17:13 < sipa> that sounds pretty close to a federated sidechain model, actually 17:13 < puff> Now obviously that sucks, in terms of security, etc. Instead, you build something quite similar in effect, only you make the crossover between bitcoin and the go-between site cryptographically secure. 17:14 < sipa> puff: you haven't described what the goal is, though 17:14 < puff> In a manner similar to payment channels, i.e. you cross over by creating a transaction that locks some bitcoins until the business at the go-between site is done. 17:14 < sipa> but why would you do this? 17:14 < puff> Which is where I find it similar to payment channels. 17:15 < sipa> why would you use a payment channel? they're a means to accomplish something. what is that? 17:15 < puff> If you use the simplistic example I gave above, then you're trusting the go-between site. 17:15 < sipa> (i'm not trying to be contrarian, just trying to make you explain your thinking) 17:15 < puff> Payment channels are yet another poorly named bitcoin thing :-). 17:16 < sipa> are you using them because of higher capacity? better privacy? particular features? smart contracts? lower fees? 17:16 < puff> But basically they're a way to have a mostly-private transaction conversation, without inflicting every one of those transactions on the bitcoin network. Commonly suggested as a way to implement micropayments. Or possibly I completely misunderstand them. 17:16 -!- Emcy_ [~Emcy@unaffiliated/emcy] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 17:16 < puff> They're an _approach_, rather than a way, etc. 17:16 < sipa> ok, offloading the public network is your goal 17:17 < puff> At least as defined in the bitcoin wiki entry on payment channels. 17:17 -!- d4de [~d4de@196.128.0.149] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:17 < sipa> that is something i guess private sidechains and payment channels have in common 17:17 -!- priidu [~priidu@unaffiliated/priidu] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 17:17 < puff> I don't have a goal at all, except perhaps to understand what these sidechains are that everybod's talking about. 17:17 < sipa> i don't think they apply to public sidechains - as those too effectively require every participants to see those too 17:18 < puff> Well as I understand payment channels,it's not so much about privacy as about performance. 17:18 < puff> Performance in the general sense. 17:18 < puff> a) small transactions, b) frequent updates, c) not increasing load (and having to pay for it) on the main bitcoin network. 17:19 < sipa> payment channels offload public transactions from the network, but in exchange get an addition security assumption (that you won't be censored when trying to settle on chain) 17:19 < puff> Though I'm sure that once you have a basic foundation for sidechain implemented, you can come up with many more interesting variations. 17:19 < puff> sipa: Can you expand on that? 17:19 < sipa> federated sidechains offload public transactions, but in exchange you give the federation the ability to keep your pegged coins locked up 17:20 < puff> Ah, okay, so they're not quite as safe as a payment channel would be. 17:20 -!- Emcy [~Emcy@unaffiliated/emcy] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:20 < sipa> merged-mined sidehcain offload public transactions _to another public network_, and in exchange give miners the ability to take your money 17:20 < puff> Has anybody ever actually implemented payment channels? 17:20 < kanzure> https://github.com/lightningnetwork/lnd 17:20 < sipa> ^ 17:20 < kanzure> https://github.com/ElementsProject/lightning 17:20 < kanzure> https://github.com/ACINQ/eclair 17:21 < puff> kanzure: Your point is? 17:21 < kanzure> your question was... 17:21 < kanzure> uh. 17:21 < puff> kanzure: I asked if anybody actually implemented payment channels. Were those links in answer to that question? 17:21 < sipa> you asked if someone implemented payment channels; kanzure gave you links to implementations of payment channels 17:22 < puff> So then sidechains *are* similar to payment channels? 17:22 < sipa> if your goal is offloading capacity from the main bitcoin network, yes 17:22 < sipa> though i think sidechains are a pretty stupid way to do that 17:22 < puff> To make sure I'm not confusing things, the lightning network is a sidechain, right? 17:22 -!- Noldorin [~noldorin@unaffiliated/noldorin] has quit [Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com] 17:22 < sipa> no 17:23 < sipa> there is no separate chain involved in lightning 17:23 < puff> Ah, okay, then I must have misread something. 17:23 < sipa> sidechains, in my view, are a way to experiment with new blockchain technology without first needing to create a new currency 17:23 < sipa> but they don't really give you any scaling advantages 17:24 < sipa> there are still chains involved that need publishing and validation 17:25 < puff> Interesting. 17:25 < sipa> payment channels are different in that there are no published transactions for all the payments - they're kept private between the participants, and they only publish an aggregated transaction that represents multiple transactions 17:25 < puff> Hm, Raiden's 101 page certainly confuses the issue. https://raiden.network/101.html 17:26 < puff> Sure, that's clearly different about payment channels. The main similarity I see is that payment channels cryptographically lock the coins, and I would have assumed a sidechain did something similar. 17:27 < sipa> there is some similarity with private federated sidechains 17:27 < puff> Do you have a pointer to a good description of private federated sidechains? 17:27 < sipa> except those are just between a small number of fixed participants 17:27 -!- Noldorin [~noldorin@unaffiliated/noldorin] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 17:27 < puff> Ah. 17:28 < sipa> it's like this... hey puff and i are going to be transferring money between eachother very often, let's lock up some coins on the main chain that both of us always have to sign off on 17:28 < sipa> and we can create our own "chain" with updates to our balances 17:29 -!- intcat [~zshlyk@gateway/tor-sasl/intcat] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:30 < sipa> the disadvantage is: it's just between the two of us (or 3, or 4, or 20, but 10000), and there is no way to settle in case one of the parties goes offline... so you really only want to do it with entities you know in real life and can go after if they hold your coins hostage 17:30 -!- priidu [~priidu@unaffiliated/priidu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:30 -!- intcat [~zshlyk@gateway/tor-sasl/intcat] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 17:30 < sipa> the advantage is: you're not restricted to bitcoin-like technology in the sidechain - it can be anything you come up, as long as all participants agree on it 17:30 < sipa> which is great if you want to experiment with new technology 17:31 < sipa> lightning doesn't let you do that... lightning payments _are_ bitcoin transactions - just most of them aren't published 17:31 -!- priidu [~priidu@unaffiliated/priidu] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 17:32 < puff> Ok... Either I'm missing something, or I'm oversimplifying something, because that sounds a whole lot like a payment channel to me. I can see, a payment channel with more supporting code/infrastructure, so you have a private blockchain-like structure instead of just mailing updated half-signed transactions back and forth... 17:32 -!- blackwraith [~priidu@unaffiliated/priidu] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 17:32 < sipa> yes, i agree 17:33 < sipa> but that's not what people usually mean when they're talking about sidechains 17:33 -!- blackwraith [~priidu@unaffiliated/priidu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:34 < kanzure> also, many sidechains have consensus requirements on the bitcoin side (miners that merge-mine, especially for extension blocks and other "self-contained" universes) 17:34 < sipa> *but not 10000 17:34 < puff> Clearly I need to keep reading on this, thanks for your help and if you have any specific resources to recommend, I'm all eyes. 17:34 < puff> sipa: ? 17:35 < puff> sipa: "* but not 10000"? 17:35 < sipa> 01:30:02 < sipa> the disadvantage is: it's just between the two of us (or 3, or 4, or 20, but 10000), and there is no way to settle in case one of the parties goes offline... so you really only want to do it 17:35 < puff> ah. 17:35 < sipa> with entities you know in real life and can go after if they hold your coins hostage 17:35 < sipa> ^ i meant "but not 10000" there 17:35 < puff> okay. 17:36 < puff> Is there a general term for the lightning network and raiden and etc? 17:36 < puff> I'm starting here https://github.com/lightningnetwork/lightning-rfc 17:36 < sipa> payment channels? :) 17:36 < puff> :-) 17:37 < nkel> puff: you mentioned exchanges earlier, they are not side-chains, there's nothing decentralized or public about their internal accounting; the only public aspects are the ingress and egress transactions between off-exchange wallets and the exchange's wallets 17:37 -!- sipa [~pw@unaffiliated/sipa1024] has left #bitcoin-wizards [] 17:38 < nkel> puff: there are a few decentralized attempts using hashed time locks, but they run into front-running problems as well as problems of crossed-books and trade-through 17:38 < puff> nkel: Absolutely. Look at the comment where I mentioned them, it started with "Okay, let me use a metaphor..." 17:38 < puff> nkel: So do exchanges commonly present to the rest of the bitcoin network as one monolithic bitcoin user, so to speak? 17:39 < puff> nkel: The "few decentralized attempts", do you mean attempts at exchanges? Or attempts at sidechains? 17:39 < nkel> puff: attempts at decentralized exchanges 17:39 < puff> ah, thanks. 17:40 < puff> That would be an interesting topic to have a deep conversation about sometime, but I'm trying to keep my focus... 17:44 < nkel> puff: side-chains work fine, but your funds are inaccessible for the duration of the HTLC 17:44 < nkel> by 'your funds' I'm referring to only the portion sent to the side-chain 17:44 < puff> Right. 17:45 < puff> ok 17:46 < nkel> although I would disagree with sipa calling side-chains like lightning as 'bitcoin transactions', if a side-chain is the same protocol as the main-chain it's sharding, an lightning isn't a sharded version of bitcoin 17:50 < nkel> the ethereum analogue of lightning is raiden, but while they'll use raiden as a stop-gap solution, vitalik's long-term goal is sharding 17:51 < nkel> not that I endorse sharding for bitcoin, but just pointing out the distinction between side-chains and sharding 17:54 < nkel> s/side-chain/off-chain channels/g 17:56 -!- Belkaar [~Belkaar@unaffiliated/belkaar] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 17:57 -!- Belkaar [~Belkaar@xdsl-85-197-45-64.netcologne.de] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 17:57 -!- Belkaar [~Belkaar@xdsl-85-197-45-64.netcologne.de] has quit [Changing host] 17:57 -!- Belkaar [~Belkaar@unaffiliated/belkaar] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 17:57 < puff> I thought sipa (or somebody) said lightning *isn't* a sidechain... 17:58 < maaku> puff: it isn't... 17:59 < puff> maaku: what's the key distinction? 18:00 < maaku> puff: they are entirely different concepts, apples to oranges. you should probably take this to #bitcoin 18:03 -!- intcat [~zshlyk@gateway/tor-sasl/intcat] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:04 -!- zshlyk [~zshlyk@gateway/tor-sasl/intcat] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 18:07 -!- priidu [~priidu@unaffiliated/priidu] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 18:12 -!- Murch [~murch@96-82-80-28-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Quit: Snoozing.] 18:15 -!- zshlyk [~zshlyk@gateway/tor-sasl/intcat] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:16 -!- zshlyk [~zshlyk@gateway/tor-sasl/intcat] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 18:20 -!- priidu [~priidu@unaffiliated/priidu] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 18:24 -!- Ylbam [uid99779@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-emsjvytwfpopxdgo] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] 18:31 -!- priidu [~priidu@unaffiliated/priidu] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:34 -!- Giszmo [~leo@pc-204-28-214-201.cm.vtr.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:46 -!- jaromil [~jaromil@devuan/developer/jaromil] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:52 -!- Giszmo [~leo@pc-204-28-214-201.cm.vtr.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 19:18 -!- zshlyk [~zshlyk@gateway/tor-sasl/intcat] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:19 -!- zshlyk [~zshlyk@gateway/tor-sasl/intcat] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 19:21 -!- son0p [~ff@adsl201-232-238-252.epm.net.co] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 19:39 -!- nephyrin [~neph@67.183.153.159] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:46 -!- wizkid057 [~wk@unaffiliated/wizkid057] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 19:56 -!- nephyrin [~neph@67.183.153.159] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 20:01 -!- kenshi84 [~kenshi84@p1300051-ipngn4802akatuka.ibaraki.ocn.ne.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:02 -!- kenshi84 [~kenshi84@p966105-ipngn5301akatuka.ibaraki.ocn.ne.jp] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 20:05 -!- son0p [~ff@adsl201-232-238-252.epm.net.co] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 20:06 -!- oleganza [~oleganza@c-73-170-224-149.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 20:13 -!- zshlyk [~zshlyk@gateway/tor-sasl/intcat] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:14 -!- zshlyk [~zshlyk@gateway/tor-sasl/intcat] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 20:17 -!- zshlyk [~zshlyk@gateway/tor-sasl/intcat] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:18 -!- zshlyk [~zshlyk@gateway/tor-sasl/intcat] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 20:24 -!- son0p [~ff@adsl201-232-238-252.epm.net.co] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 20:26 -!- Noldorin [~noldorin@unaffiliated/noldorin] has quit [Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. 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