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02:31 < Sentineo> andytoshi: what does fixed point mean in this case? (relating to that OP_DUP OP_SHA1 ...)
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02:34 < notsure> Hi, I would like to have a bit of a guideance please. If the optimal fee say 400 satoshi / byte, and I have 0,00213686 BTC in my wallet, how many bitcoin wold be my fee???
02:34 < fluffypony> notsure: #bitcoin
02:34 < fluffypony> not here
02:34 < notsure> thx
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02:37 < meshcollider> Sentineo: a value which hashes to itself under sha1
02:39 < meshcollider> Sentineo: hence the duplication, hash the duplicate, and check that hash is equal to the original
02:39 < Sentineo> ah ok, and there is infinitely many inputs that can make it so, right? meshcollider
02:39 < Sentineo> meshcollider: ah ok, now I get the script ... ty!
02:44 < meshcollider> Sentineo: 2^160 possible sha1 hashes, of those only maybe a few would hash to themselves. Certainly not infinite
02:46 < Sentineo> yeah, mixed it with colusion before you explained the script
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02:55 < adlai> it does take infinitely-long input...
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02:56 < Sentineo> adlai: no, I tought so too, but you need an input that hashes to itself 2d times input = sha1(sha1(input)) if I got it right.
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03:33 < meshcollider> adlai: if a hash is 160bits, only way it can equal the input is if the input is also 160bit...
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03:34 < meshcollider> adlai, Sentineo: you need x such that x = sha1(X)
03:35 < meshcollider> Sentineo: only one hash, you don't need two (although two is also true if one is, of course)
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03:38 < Sentineo> meshcollider: yeah I did 2 to demontrate the 2^160 space
03:38 < Sentineo> would be true for 3, 4, 5, ...
03:38 < meshcollider> Yep
03:39 < Sentineo> why is that important though? What attack could be done finding such a hash? and why sha1?
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07:15 < contrapumpkin> maaku: nice :) and yeah andytoshi that was my fear
07:15 < contrapumpkin> I'm guessing the sha1 one has already been claimed at this point
07:15 < contrapumpkin> also that's a collision and not a fixed point, but same idea
07:16 < contrapumpkin> I guess the main difference with a fixed point is that there's no guarantee that one exists, but a nontrivial probability of it
07:16 < contrapumpkin> what I really need is a reward for a fixed point or proof that none exists :)
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07:52 < nsh> i would imagine that a proof of the non-existence of a fixed point for a nontrivial hash function would be pretty long...
07:52 < nsh> like exhaustively long
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08:12 < contrapumpkin> I imagine there's probably a more succinct proof than a full exhaustive enumeration, but I can't prove that either :P
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08:20 < nsh> i don't know if there are even known bounds on the expected running time or space use of cycle-detection algorithms in cryptographic hash functions. a proof of a minimum cycle length seems pretty out of reach
08:22 < nsh> oh okay, it's 2^128 applications expectation to find a cycle using naive Floyd turtle & hare kinda shenanigans
08:22 < nsh> ( https://crypto.stackexchange.com/questions/41372/floyds-cycle-finding-algorithm-on-sha256 )
08:24 < nsh> but there is some relevance to puzzles with (kinda) actual cryptocurrency value: https://pdaian.com/blog/collision-finding-the-maxwell-way/
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08:39 < waxwing> is my logic correct that there must be a cycle, *if* the 32byte input - 32 byte output mapping is not a proper permutation?
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08:42 < andytoshi> like, a 2-element cycle? there will be cycles of some length no matter what
08:43 < andytoshi> just by counting -- if you keep applying the function, you have to eventually see a previous value because there are only decreasingly many unseen values
08:44 < waxwing> "always be cycles of some length" - yeah that is what i was thinking, i know it's simple but was just sanity checking
08:44 < waxwing> never thought about this stuff, it's cool though
08:45 < waxwing> oic yeah even simpler, no matter if permutation
08:48 < andytoshi> there is some variant of the "100 prisoners, each day one is randomly chosen to go into a room with a lightswitch, how can they be sure that everyone has been in the room after the minimum number of days" puzzle which has a clever solution involving cycle-finding
08:48 < andytoshi> but i can't find it..
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11:12 < tromp> andytoshi, aren't you confused with the 100 prisoners, each opening 50 out of 100 boxes, puzzle?
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11:12 < andytoshi> tromp: oo, yes, that sounds familiar
11:13 < andytoshi> yes, thank you! all i remembered was "100 prisoners" and "solution involving cycles", which is not enough to google for :)
11:13 < tromp> the boxes contain all their (unique) names, and the goal is for every prisoner to find their own name among the 50 they open
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11:13 < andytoshi> yup
11:13 < tromp> find a strategy with non-negiglible success prob
11:14 < tromp> naive strategy is only 2^-100 chance
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11:14 < tromp> best one is around 30%
11:15 < tromp> one of best puzzles ever
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11:30 < waxwing> tromp, ah thanks, fun, something to ponder over dinner :)
11:32 < waxwing> https://puzzling.stackexchange.com/questions/16/100-prisoners-names-in-boxes
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11:39 < andytoshi> here's a fun variant i haven't seen stated? suppose that each prisoner goes in in series, immediately lives or dies, and the other prisoners learn this before continuing. can they reduce the maximum number of deaths to 1? i think so but i'm not sure
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11:45 < da2ce7_> hello andytoshi and tromp, I love these brain toys.  :)
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11:50 < haaning> Hey guys. Anyone recall the name of the mining pool that validated a lot of blocks in a row? 6 I think it was?
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17:07 < maaku> Sentineo: people seem to have gotten distracted. to your question, there are some protocols that could possibly break if a small cycle or fixed point were found
17:08 < maaku> alternatively it would make the hash function potentially useful as a compact assymetric cryptography primitive
17:09 < maaku> but the real value is in just understanding if there can be cycles. one of the assumptions of a cryptographic hash function is that its output is indistinguishable from randomness.. having small cycles kinda breaks that
17:09 < maaku> it would be a strong indication of weakness in the function itself
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