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02:31 < rusty> If we had UTXO commitments (handwave), is it possible to compactly prove that the UTXO commitment is garbage?  AFAICT you'd need the entire block, so you could derive the UTXO commitment and show it was incorrect.  Or am I missing a trick?
02:31 < yoleaux> 24 Nov 2017 16:47Z <maaku> rusty: cute, but I far prefer units which describe or imply what they are, even metaphorically. I'm going to keep calling it weight.
02:33 < rusty> maaku: Like the Newton, the Watt and the Joule?  I don't think this is a convincing argument :)
02:34 < rusty> In fact, I think the same problem applies to the merkle root.  You can't prove it's garbage without providing every txid, AFAICT.  Though that's not quite as heavy as every tx.
02:36 < maaku> rusty: I'm actually not a fan of SI units ;)
02:37 < rusty> (Actually, never mind, that's a subset of the data withholding problem I think).
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05:47 < kanzure> .to rusty can't prove a merkle root (or blockheader) is garbage without every transaction, due to the validity requirement.
05:47 < yoleaux> kanzure: I'll pass your message to rusty.
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05:57 < contrapumpkin> kanzure: you're at ledgerx!
05:57 < kanzure> need something?
05:57 < contrapumpkin> nah, just recognized your name when I was looking at it yesterday :) it seems cool
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07:49 < sn0wmonster> how feasible is it for bitcoin to ever be as inherently untraceable as Monero is?
07:50 < sn0wmonster> could it even be done at all given the way the existing blockchain is already public?
07:54 < nsh> completely feasible if you abandon conservative principles. CT could be implemented with bulletproofs today using a hard fork, or even a soft fork with more caveats
07:55 < nsh> but it's unlikely to happen on the mainchain due to governance externalities
07:55 < nsh> in the near term anyway
08:01 < waxwing> sn0wmonster, how feasible is it for bitcoin to ever be as inherently unscalable as Monero is? :)
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08:06 < sn0wmonster> waxwing, for a demonstration, see bcash
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14:40 < rusty> kanzure: thanks, indeed.  That kind of blows the idea of compact fraud proofs up, AFAICT.  You need a UTXO commitment to compactly prove "that output never existed" but you can't compactly prove the UTXO commitment itself is invalid. handwave: maybe could shard the UTXO commitment somehow into N, then it's 1/N the data to prove any one of N is invalid, but then using UTXO commitmetns to prove stuff is N times larger.
14:40 < yoleaux> 13:47Z <kanzure> rusty: can't prove a merkle root (or blockheader) is garbage without every transaction, due to the validity requirement.
14:45 < kanzure> rusty: here are some things,
14:45 < kanzure> http://gnusha.org/bitcoin-wizards/2017-08-10.log
14:45 < kanzure> http://gnusha.org/bitcoin-wizards/2017-08-04.log
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15:47 < maaku> sn0wmonster: (1) Monero isn't as untraceable as you think it is; (2) CT is a red herring as it hides the amounts only not the tx graph; (3) bitcoin can achieve essentially the same property with coinjoin/coinswap
15:48 < contrapumpkin> maaku: have more references on that? I thought the point was to hide the graph using the cryptonote style
15:48 < maaku> references on which part?
15:49 < maaku> rusty: that's a stronger claim than I'm aware of people making about fraud proofs. the hope with fraud proofs, reaching all the way back to satoshi's "alerts", is that a full node can provide compact evidence of invalidity
15:49 < contrapumpkin> I guess part 1. Part 2 is supposed to be used in conjunction with some sort of selectable anonymity set for the inputs isn't it, which was part of cryptonote?
15:49 < maaku> not that you can discover invalidity from a compact data
15:51 < contrapumpkin> not sure I follow? or were you talking to rusty
15:51 < waxwing> i don't think CT is a red herring.
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15:52 < contrapumpkin> like you have the ring sigs to mask your inputs to a degree of your choice
15:52 < contrapumpkin> and then CT covers the transaction amounts to minimize correlations
15:52 < waxwing> ring sigs don't *hide* the graph but they do seriously obfuscate it, maaku is presumably saying that CT + CJ (which is a lot easier) gives somewhat similar effects
15:52 < contrapumpkin> fair enough
15:53 < contrapumpkin> so I guess you end up with a "probabilistic graph"
15:53 < contrapumpkin> where if the input set was 4, there's a 1/4 chance of each input being an edge
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15:53 < contrapumpkin> or something like that?
15:53 < maaku> Monero only provides a small amount of obfuscation due to the linear cost of a ring signature. For each input you select a couple of random other inputs that it could have been.
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15:54 < contrapumpkin> it seems like tracing through a graph made of such probabilistic edges would lead to very small probabilities very quickly though
15:54 < waxwing> i think it's more than a couple, for sure, not sure exact numbers as of now tho'
15:54 < contrapumpkin> if you took more than a couple of hops
15:54 < dEBRUYNE> waxwing: ring size is 5 by default
15:54 < waxwing> contrapumpkin, yeah true but it's nastily hard analysis, because all kinds of metadata and heuristics can come into play
15:54 < dEBRUYNE> And it's enforced on the protocol level
15:54 < waxwing> dEBRUYNE, thanks yeah that was my memory but i wasn't sure
15:54 < contrapumpkin> dEBRUYNE: always exactly 5? I guess that makes sense
15:54 < maaku> However the traceability of transactions due to other block chain visible information (tx time, frequency of linkage, etc.) provides more bits of identifying information than a couple of extra ring signatures provides
15:54 < contrapumpkin> to minimize profiling of sizes?
15:55 < dEBRUYNE> It's not an enforced constant. People can choose something higher than 5 if they want to
15:55 < contrapumpkin> ah okay
15:55 < dEBRUYNE> There's talk about enforcing it as a constant though to make it uniform
15:55 < maaku> This is without even looking into crypto weaknesses such as set intersections of the rings to provably show spentness and such
15:55 < contrapumpkin> but if I choose 1828 inputs, it probably stands out :)
15:55 < dEBRUYNE> Right
15:56 < contrapumpkin> maaku: can you expand on how tx time might help you correlate things?
15:56 < dEBRUYNE> Well, depends, if you use it once, it won't stand out
15:56 < dEBRUYNE> If you use it all the time, it will
15:56 < waxwing> maaku, still don't see where the "red herring" part comes from.
15:56 < contrapumpkin> like of the privacy coins out there, it seems like the least bullshitty
15:56 < contrapumpkin> I guess that isn't saying much
15:56 < contrapumpkin> my sense was that it was actually pretty decent though
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15:57 < maaku> contrapumpkin: you generally make your transactions 9-5 in your timezone. you select, randomly, inputs from someone in east asia that makes transactions normally when you are asleep
15:57 < contrapumpkin> ok
15:57 < maaku> you can use machine learning to cluster groups of potential spends based on features like that, and assign likelihoods of which input being the "real" one
15:58 < maaku> it doesn't take many features to reduce a 2- 3- or 4-way spend
15:58 < contrapumpkin> why would I consistently pick the ones in asia though? and can't I just make sure there's a fairly uniform distribution of input txn attributes?
15:59 < maaku> That plus the veil is going to be pierced on the entire block chain history when there are quantum computers.
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16:00 < maaku> contrapumpkin: you don't want a uniform distribution. you want to hide in the anonymity set of people who transact similarly to you.
16:00 < maaku> assuming you can't set N=infinity, which you can't
16:01 < contrapumpkin> I'm just struggling to see much that can be correlated beyond txn times, so I'm not sure what you'd do with that knowledge
16:03 < maaku> That was one example. Also, how many inputs and outputs, the tx graph distance of the various inputs (you can't hide the fact you're spending two of your own inputs!), any wallet software identifying tx features
16:04 < contrapumpkin> yeah, I guess I can see there are "features"
16:04 < contrapumpkin> I just don't see a "ground truth" to learn out of it
16:04 < contrapumpkin> with a team going out of its way to homogenize as much as they possibly can, it seems like wallet variations will be minimal and probably removed over time
16:04 < contrapumpkin> time is fundamentally hard to homogenize unless you want high latency
16:05 < maaku> I have enough of a machine learning background to appreciate this as a "data-rich" environment. I personally consider CryptoNote-derived protocols fundamentally broken.
16:05 < contrapumpkin> but I could see someday the network getting together and saying highly secure transactions only get broadcast twice a day at UTC 6 and 18
16:05 < contrapumpkin> or something
16:07 < maaku> CoinJoin/ValueShuffle is harder to work with, but as a result of it being interactive you get more uniformity in your anonymity set.
16:08 < contrapumpkin> oh, I'm also quite eager to see more coinjoin, don't get me wrong
16:08 < contrapumpkin> I just don't think monero is as fundamentally broken as you make it out to be :)
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17:24 < waxwing> i don't follow maaku why you think that CJ + CT would be harder to do data analysis on than ring sig + CJ?
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17:28 < waxwing> i mean the negative of interactivity for CJ (in models where it is indeed interactive) are obviously a very big deal, and if it uses more space on chain that's another negative, but that tradeoff (space) will depend on all kinds of details.
17:28 < waxwing> but the interactivity one is really the biggie of course
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17:36 < waxwing> why would it being interactive lead to "more uniformity in anonymity set"?
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18:00 < rusty> maaku: exactly, how does a full node provide a compact proof that the UTXO commitment is invalid?
18:00 < rusty> If it is, in fact, random junk.  AFAICT you pretty much need the entire block.
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18:25 < maaku> rusty: it's not a tx-validity rule?
18:26 < rusty> maaku: Don't understand.  I'm assuming a simple model, where coinbase commits to tree of all outstanding UTXOs after this block is processed.  AFAICT you can't produce a compact proof that this is wrong.
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19:05 < stoffu> maaku: >>you generally make your transactions 9-5 in your timezone. you select, randomly, inputs from someone in east asia that makes transactions normally when you are asleep<<= Decoys in ring signatures are automatically chosen from the entirety of ever growing TXO set, with probability following a triangular distribution favoring recent outputs.
19:07 < stoffu> Users aren't allowed to manually pick decoys because humans are bad at picking random values.
19:08 < stoffu> And the decoy selection algorithm has nothing to do with your timezone or the time of tx creation.
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