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11:13 < nsh> is proof-of-burn actually a viable replacement for PoW? considering what we know theoretically about economic-incentive based byzantine consensus?
11:14  * nsh reads https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Proof_of_burn
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11:15 < nsh> kanzure, any recollections?
11:16 < nsh> .title https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Proof_of_burn
11:16 < yoleaux> Proof of burn - Bitcoin Wiki
11:16 < nsh> no, https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1182677.0
11:17 < kanzure> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=134827.0
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11:19 < nsh> burning for purchase makes sense, but i'm not sure burning for block reward lottery can replace PoW
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12:08 < contrapumpkin> when the pay-to-sudoku happened, it used zk-SNARKs (interactively) for the ZKP, right? Did it need some sort of trusted third party to do trusted setup for the SNARKs or are they more amenable to trustless proofs between two parties who know each other?
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12:21 < maaku> contrapumpkin: I don't remember the details of that specific ZKCP, but note that trusted setup is okay in that case.
12:22 < maaku> The person offering the bounty does the trusted setup. It's perfectly okay that they can make fraudulent proofs (indeed, you can consider that a feature in that they can remove the bounty if they find a different use for the funds, even without solving it)
12:22 < maaku> Alternatively you can do a 2-of-2 where you require proofs using the trusted setup of two different people, or generalize to N
12:23 < maaku> If there are N people involved, have N trusted setups and provide N proofs.
12:23 < maaku> nsh: if you read the wiki article carefully you'll note that it assumes global consensus to work
12:24 < maaku> (if we can get global consensus over a source of randomness, then we can use proof of work to create global consensus...)
12:26 < nsh> ah
12:31 < contrapumpkin> fair enough
12:31 < contrapumpkin> maaku: but couldn't bad parameters for the snark make it so that the prover reveals information to the verifier?
12:32 < maaku> *use proof of burn to create global consensus
12:34 < maaku> contrapumpkin: I don't think so, but I'm not an expert on this stuff.
12:35 < sipa> maaku: i believe yhere was a recent break or at least realization that zksnarkd are not zero knowledge to someone with the key
12:35 < maaku> I see.
12:35 < sipa> so the zkcp that we demonstrated wasn't actually secure, and sean could have extracted a few bits of information from gmaxwell's sudoku solution :)
12:36 < andytoshi> there was a talk at RWC about this
12:36 < contrapumpkin> but a more traditional fully interactive thing would've been fine, right?
12:36 < contrapumpkin> (als, 😱)
12:36 < sipa> we should have used a bulletproof ;)
12:36 < maaku> Well that invalidates my proposed construct above
12:36 < contrapumpkin> does Sean Bowe hang out in here? he should be freaking out!
12:36 < contrapumpkin> I was reading on the internet that gmaxwell is basically the least honest person alive
12:37 < andytoshi> contrapumpkin: apparently he's not here, but his nick is ebfull
12:37 < andytoshi> lol
12:37 < contrapumpkin> hah thanks
12:37 < andytoshi> sadly rbtc never picks up on conspiracy theories that require crypto knowledge
12:41 < maaku> andytoshi: do you know which talk?
12:41 < andytoshi> maaku: i believe this one https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DP8xSEM9bd8
12:42 < maaku> thanks
12:42 < andytoshi> yep, that's the one, it discusses the history of ZKCP including the ebfull/gmax trade
12:43 < contrapumpkin> oh nice
12:43 < contrapumpkin> andytoshi: you on twitter?
12:44 < sipa> contrapumpkin: i just had dinner with ebfull :)
12:44 < contrapumpkin> nice
12:44 < contrapumpkin> also, had you seen this? https://github.com/gstew5/snarkl
12:44 < contrapumpkin> given past interests in haskell, etc. :)
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12:45 < sipa> oh, look, an EDSL :)
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12:46 < contrapumpkin> I just saw a talk of his where he laments the lack of a nice DSL for it
12:46 < contrapumpkin> so I tweeted the link at him in case he missed it
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12:51 < andytoshi> contrapumpkin: not on twitter, sorry :)
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13:22 < lmatteis> hello all. i've been thinking about how the fact that there are countless crypto-coins that work on different principles; yet they all seem to be solving the double spending problem. although it would be too complicated to test whether they all fail to provide safety against double-spending --you would need to study each and every one of them-- i've come up with a simple conclusion to why the all "seem to
13:22 < lmatteis> work": all the wallets share the same bootstrap nodes, which are controlled by the devs of such crypto-coin; hence the consensus becomes easy to achieve when you know all wallets are connecting to the same servers. ideas? thoughts?
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13:24 < andytoshi> yes, they basically all work on the principle of "a couple random developers run nodes which the entire network depends on, and nobody cares enough to attack them, and anyway nobody is using the network, just trading within exchange databases, so it doesn't matter"
13:24 < andytoshi> there isn't really any room for research within that paradigm
13:26 < lmatteis> yes indeed
13:29 < lmatteis> although the bounty for attacking such servers would be high since you'd win double-spending possibilities; which, frankly, still makes me wonder how hackers aren't on this
13:39 < andytoshi> because it's a pain in the ass, the exchanges will block you, the price will likely crater, you expose yourself to legal/professional risk, and anyone capable has other things to do with their time that don't have these problems
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13:53 < lmatteis> well when there's lots of money on the line, i'm not sure it would be such a "pain in the ass" anymore. it's probably the most profitable avenue for hackers
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14:01 < EvanR> exactly what are you proposing to do, to for instance steal all the dimecoins
14:01 < EvanR> impersonate one of the bootstrap nodes
14:01 < EvanR> and do what
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14:05 < lmatteis> 1) get a hold of lots of coins 2) double-spend them on two or more exchanges 3) profit
14:07 < EvanR> lets say you wait 2.5 months for someone to actually want to bootstrap dimecoin, say, then they do. they get your fake chain...
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14:08 < EvanR> you still dont have anything
14:08 < EvanR> and cant double spend
14:09 < EvanR> established people wont accept your money
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14:12 < lmatteis> i'm not sure i understand your premise
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15:23 < contrapumpkin> sipa: so I assume Greg is amending his ZKCP document to implement the WI proposal in https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DP8xSEM9bd8? :)
15:23 < contrapumpkin> (also, that was a very fun talk)
15:25 < contrapumpkin> are all these weird protocols easy to "port" over to a LN channel?
15:25 < kanzure> .title
15:25 < yoleaux> Zero knowledge, subversion resistance, and concrete attacks | Steven Goldfeder | RWC 2018 - YouTube
15:25 < contrapumpkin> intuitively it seems nontrivial, since LN is just about rebalancing a multisig
15:26 < contrapumpkin> although I guess HTLC isn't really weird, either
15:27 < contrapumpkin> ah, I guess https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Hashed_Timelock_Contracts#HTLCs_in_payment_channels
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17:18 < maaku> contrapumpkin: ANY smart contract can reduce to N-of-N multisig in the cooperative closure case, which is the same as a lightning-like channel
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17:55 < contrapumpkin> what do y'all think of ZKCSP as a concept?
17:56 < contrapumpkin> (Zero-Knowledge Contingent Service Payments, as outlined in http://stevengoldfeder.com/papers/ZKCSP.pdf which is the paper attached to that talk linked above)
17:56 < contrapumpkin> I guess the motivation with their two examples is that producing the ZKP is very computationally intensive, so you don't just want to provide such proofs for free?
17:57 < contrapumpkin> at the same time, a few exchanges already provide those proofs of solvency for free, so that seems less obviously valuable to me
18:00 < contrapumpkin> anyway, as a generalization it seems possibly handy, but I still don't really get what situations it would really apply in
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--- Log closed Tue Jan 16 00:00:25 2018