--- Log opened Wed Jan 24 00:00:32 2018
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03:31 < HSF_Prince_Loaf> hi. does anyone trade bitcoin tracker one in interactive brokers?
03:31 < HSF_Prince_Loaf> damn wrong channel :P
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17:41 < Guest82744> Sooooooo
17:42 < Guest82744> Trades?
17:42 < sipa> wrong channel
17:43 < gratefuldad> this channel is for not talking.  shhhh.
17:45 < contrapumpkin> so bitcoin atom's big selling point is that it comes with atomic swaps *runs*
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21:19 < MaxSan> Do i understand this right that using MuSig style for signatures that we can have non interactivity on combining signed inputs?
21:20 < MaxSan> so anyone can basically sign extra inputs on any transaction within their own mempool? and the original publisher of the tx would be able to validate their own transaction still?
21:24 < sipa> MuSig is interactive
21:25 < sipa> and not really the best choice for cross-input signature aggregation
21:25 < sipa> what you're describing sounds more like BLS signatures (which support non-interactive aggregation)
21:26 < sipa> though to combine extra inputs into transactions you want something like OWAS or MimbleWimble
21:27 < PaulTroon> I thought it required interaction.. on page 5 of the paper it lists the number of rounds and the paper has 2 (rather than 3)
21:27 < sipa> yes
21:28 < sipa> many people seem to be reading way too much into MuSig
21:30 < PaulTroon> MaxSan might be interested in Tadges formulation for non-interactive sig aggregation using Schnorr: https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2017-May/014272.html
21:31 < PaulTroon> Seems like andytoshi and tadge both have worked on this idea
21:32 < sipa> yes you can aggregate 50% of Schnorr signatures non-interactively
21:32 < sipa> but not entirely
21:32 < PaulTroon> BLS seemms kind of like magic if it can do full non-interactive sig aggregation
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21:33 < PaulTroon> the Rs, yes
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21:34 < PaulTroon> as far as I understand, the performance hit is primary negative for BLS, but I thought maybe there was some deeper cryptographic drawback also
21:34 < sipa> it relies on pairing
21:35 < sipa> which is more novel, and an additional assumption on top of elliptic curve DL
21:35 < sipa> further, if all you get from it is block-wide aggregation rather than tx-wide aggregation... i'm very hesitant
21:35 < sipa> block-wide aggregation breaks caching of tx validity, for example
21:36 < sipa> or at least complicates it significantly
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21:40 < PaulTroon> Since the Rs aren't secret, can they be something derived from P? H(P) .. that would reduce what needs to be communicated
21:40 < sipa> unfortunately, no
21:41 < sipa> they must be chosen randomly by the signers, or they leak their private key through the s value
21:41 < PaulTroon> ah, that makes sense
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21:43 < PaulTroon> the use case for sig aggregation I'm investigating is a bit different
21:46 < PaulTroon> I  want to make sure a signer can't remove the signatures and messages from the aggregate signature of previous signers
21:46 < sipa> in BLS?
21:47 < PaulTroon> I believe BLS can do this, but have not seen it used just for that
21:47 < PaulTroon> though that seems to be true of all aggregate signature schemes
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21:48 < PaulTroon> maybe it's overkill
21:48 < sipa> i believe in BLS, if you have an aggregate, and you have seen an individual signature that is included in the aggregate, you can also remove it
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21:49 < sipa> in Bellare-Neven (what i'm considering to propose for bitcoin for cross-input signature aggregation), it's impossible, as every signer commits to the keys and messages of everyone
21:50 < PaulTroon> I'm looking at a mesh network message passing use case where the nodes could keep their signature secret before aggregating it
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21:51 < PaulTroon> it's different from the block compression/privacy use case I think, and my concern is only that perhaps aggregate signatures is overkill
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21:58 < PaulTroon> hearing andytoshi talk about mw and tadge talk about DLCs it seems like building on the schnorr signatures scheme has many advantages
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