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09:35 < stick_> Does anyone have a definition of "permissionless" with regards to Bitcoin blockchain? I understand it as "everyone can access" and "everyone can mine" (theoretically). But to actually perform a Tx, you need a miner's "permission".
09:36 < andytoshi> to the extent that's true it's a bug
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09:53 < stick_> andytoshi: I meant that any miner can ignore your Tx if they want to, but they are incentivized to include it, given that fee is high enough. I'd call it a permissioned model, but with free market of service providers (miners).
09:56 < andytoshi> right, i'm saying that they shouldn't even be able to distinguish your tx in any way except for its feerate
09:56 < kanzure> i think it's better to just focus on the source code and look at how things work, rather than redefining other people's terms
09:56 < kanzure> there are some proposals for how to mitigate transaction censorship (such as committed transactions) if you want to look into those details
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12:04 < Sojourner> greets!
12:05 < kanzure> be greeted
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12:05 < kanzure> k
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12:37 < tachys> What is the current state of atomic swaps, as described by Tier Nolan here:
12:37 < tachys> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=193281.msg2003765
12:37 < tachys> Seems like one could make a decentralized exchange this way, but I haven't heard of any development/BIPS on it. Does anyone know why that is?
12:38 < belcher> you still need an orderbook and a way of connecting people together
12:38 < belcher> atomic swaps mean theres no counterparty risk but thats not really a problem with centralized exchanges that rely on their reputation who dont scam people anyway
12:39 < belcher> something similar to atomic swaps could be used for privacy in coinswap, essentially a private atomic swap on the same blockchain
12:39 < kanzure> i think an exchange would unlikely to be specified as a bip
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12:53 < contrapumpkin> yeah, lots of decentralized exchanges exist that implement them
12:53 < contrapumpkin> but not really BIPpy
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16:54 < tachys> @belcher thanks for the response. When I think of a decentralized exchange I mostly get excited about the prospect of not having a single service store millions of dollars of value. Instead you just add support for atomic swapping in most of the popular wallets, and then services would arise which maintain trustless orderbooks and act as beacons to alert participants of a revealed preimage
16:56 < sipa> how do you prevent frontrunning?
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16:58 < kanzure> there's no proof that centralization prevents frontrunning
16:59 < sipa> no, but trust does
17:00 < sipa> i'm not claiming that requiring a trusted party to control information flow about the order book is a good thing, but it's the only way i know :)
17:02 < tachys> @sipa I don't know right now. Is frontrunning mostly a problem for large trades? If so, then I guess the decentralized exchanges are only for the day-to-day trades
17:03 < sipa> tachys: decentralized exchanging is great if you have two participants who already have market information which they base their price for selling/buying on
17:04 < sipa> as in: if all you're interested in is trading, and not in establishing a market itself, it's all you need
17:04 < sipa> but generally people don't just want to trade at a specific price, but want to get the best possible trade out of their money
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17:11 < tachys> hmmm so we need decentralized price discovery as well.
17:12 < sipa> so you now need a consensus system that knows about all market orders
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17:13 < sipa> unfortunately, decentralized consensus systems are way too slow for that, and subject to miners colluding with market participants :)
17:25 < iddo> i'm working on sgx exchange: https://eprint.iacr.org/2017/1153
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