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07:17 < tromp> is there a good writeup anywhere of the argument for coinbase maturity?
07:23 < tromp> i guess it comes down to fungibility. freshly minted coins have higher rirsk of disappearing in reorg
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07:29 < tromp> but so fresh outputs of recently confirmed txs
07:34 < belcher> it may also help with incentives, as miners cant get paid unless more blocks keep being produced
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08:53 < tromp> it seems an incentive to not follow the longest chain rule, if their coinbase is on a slightly shorter branch
08:54 < tromp> but it's unlikely they could sell their coinbase before getting 6 confirmations anyway
08:54 < tromp> and 6-deep reorgs are exceedingly rare
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10:07 < sipa> tromp: the theory is that absent a double spending attempt, transactions that get reorged out in one chain will quickly make it into the other chain
10:08 < sipa> tromp: while a coinbase cannot move
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10:53 < waxwing> typos in proofs aside, the rewrite of section 4 of the BPs paper is really helpful. if you found it difficult to comprehend before (like i did), try the new one.
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11:34 < tromp> thx for elaborating, sipa
11:35 < sipa> tromp: i think 100 blocks wait is very much overkill, but the rationale for waiting before spending just-minted coins holds
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12:46 < tromp> a question for rangeproof experts: if i know that some rangeproof is for an output r\*G+1\*H, could i change it to a rangeproof for r\*G+0\*H (not knowing r) ?
12:54 < waxwing> you can't open a commitment to (a,b) to any different a',b' if the commitment is binding (which in that case it should be if you don't have the discrete log of H w.r.t. G
12:54 < waxwing> although maybe i didn't understand the Q
12:56 < waxwing> well, that's if you *do* know the values. if you don't even know the value r then you can't open it full stop, modified or otherwise.
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13:03 < sipa> tromp: a rangeproof for value 0 or 1 is just a ring signature for keys {commitment, commitment-H}
13:06 < sipa> what you want to do is change the commitment by subtracting H from it, and then still have a rangeproof for it
13:07 < sipa> generally i expect that the ring signature will sign the commitment, so that wouldn't be possible
13:10 < tromp> yes, i worry about malleability of outputs, with either traditional or bulletproof rangeproofs
13:11 < tromp> so for traditional rangeproof that amounts to changing a single ring sig
13:11 < tromp> which should be impossible
13:11 < sipa> right
13:11 < sipa> if you're asking whether the existing rangeproof formulations allow this: no absolutely not
13:12 < sipa> i thought you were asking if it would be possible to construct a rangeproof system for which this is possible
13:12 < tromp> uh, no, just wanna make sure bulletproofs are immune to such malleability
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13:14 < waxwing> the proofs are along the lines of "if you can open the commitment, you must be opening it to the commitment which represents the value, else you break the binding property of the (vector pedersen commitment)), i believe
13:15 < tromp> this is not about opening the commitment, just about having the rangeproof validate
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13:16 < sipa> waxwing: i don't think that's technically in conflict with what tromp is asking
13:16 < sipa> which is more a malleability like question
13:16 < waxwing> well meh it's a bit more than that because you're proving that each bit is a bit by using the encoded-as-bits a_L but also a_R and proving they satisfy a_L - a_R = 1 and a_L hadamard a_R = 0
13:16 < waxwing> (sorry started that before, not in response to last 2 messages :)
13:18 < waxwing> isn't that the same issue though? you prove it has a structure of bits, and if you open those bits to anything other than the value (malleate?) you must have broken binding?
13:19 < sipa> i may be missing something, but the original commitment is never opened
13:19 < waxwing> hmm, ok, i'm talking about the proof (witness extractor)
13:19 < waxwing> so yeah, i'm talking about "soundness". is there something subtle that that doesn't cover?
13:20 < sipa> the question here is can you, based on a commitment, a proof, and the value it commits to (but not the blinding factor) construct a new commitment and proof for a different chosen value
13:20 < sipa> i guess the answer is that the commitment doesn't care about values or blinding factors; they commit to the tuple of both
13:21 < andytoshi> tromp: you definitely can't change the _value_, this would violate the zero-knowledge property because it'd reveal whether the value-offsetting thing you did pushed the value out of range or not
13:21 < andytoshi> in both BPs and the old rangeproofs you also can't change the blinding factor
13:22 < sipa> andytoshi: i'm not sure if it violates zero knowledge if the assumption is that you'd only be able to do this if you already know the value
13:22 < andytoshi> ah yes, i think that's a loophole in my logic
13:22 < tromp> right, sipa. i know i won't be able to do it in general. but maybe i cld just change value 1 to value 0
13:22 < andytoshi> welll, no, you could guess the value
13:23 < sipa> andytoshi: hmm!
13:23 < andytoshi> and then you'd learn whether or not your guess was right by whether you could malleate the proof
13:23 < sipa> especially if it's a small range
13:23 < sipa> yup, i agree
13:23 < tromp> ok, so all is good:-)
13:24 < andytoshi> tromp: in general i see no logical reason why you shouldn't be able to malleate the blinding factor, or even malleate the proof independently of the commitment .. but in fact existing schemes also prevent this
13:24 < andytoshi> yes :)
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13:24 < sipa> andytoshi: actually, i still disagree
13:25 < sipa> no, nevermind
13:25 < sipa> you're right
13:25 < waxwing> i don't understand why it's interesting if you know the value and can create a new commitment to a new value? if you don't know, and can use it to create a commitment to v+10 then i guess that's what you guys are talking about?
13:26 < sipa> right, if the value offsetting thing you do also offsets the range, i guess there is nothing theoretical to prevent it
13:26 < andytoshi> i suspect tromp is worried about theft attacks in MW .. and it is true that you need some sort of anti-malleability property to your rangeproofs if you want MW to work
13:26 < sipa> you take a commitment to 0 or 1 - there is no reason why you shouldn't be allowed to turn it into a commitment to 10 or 11 with a rangeproof that it is 10 or 11
13:26 < waxwing> ah .. offsets the range ...
13:27 < waxwing> i wouldn't have thought that'd be possible, but interesting for sure :)
13:27 < andytoshi> and i don't know exactly what this property is, but existing rangeproofs definitely have it because (a) they are proofs of knowledge and (b) they are totally non-malleable without knowing the blinding factor
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13:30 < waxwing> how would a linear offset work? the existing setup requires that the bit or its complement (aL, aR) are zero. and the proof extracts a witness for that?
13:31 < andytoshi> with BPs you can add an explicit offset f, then just add z^2*f*H to the verification equation
13:31 < andytoshi> you're just changing the sum 2^i a_i = v thing by adding f to one side of it
13:31 < sipa> you can do the same with traditional rangeproofs
13:32 < sipa> just say that if you want to verify a commitment C, a proof P, and a range [A..B], you instead verify C-A*H with range [0..B-A]
13:32 < andytoshi> yep. (and in elements we actually do, we enforce that 0-value outputs don't exist because they mess up issuance token reasoning)
13:32 < andytoshi> right you can also do that, it's fully general for any kind of rangeproof
13:32 < sipa> now the proof doesn't change if you change the offset
13:33 < waxwing> yes it was more intuitive to me (anyway) that it makes sense for borromean style
13:35 < tromp> yes, i was worried because MW would break with value-malleable rangeproofs
13:36 < andytoshi> the borromean proofs sign the offset (i had to check the code to make sure)
13:36 < tromp> if i'm receiving money and know the sender has change of 1, i could steal that into my output
13:36 < andytoshi> yes, that is logically impossible for any zk rangeproof
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15:46 < PottyLarry> Hello all, I'd like to get more involved in blockchain. I have time to give .. to learn and experience with software development
15:46 < PottyLarry> If anybody needs any help with anything, I'm keen
15:48 < belcher> wrong channel, please ask in #bitcoin instead
15:48 < PottyLarry> I'd like to get involved with gringots
15:49 < PottyLarry> I can do magic, not lisp, but magic
15:49 < PottyLarry> not math
15:50 < PottyLarry> pls gief me chance
15:50 < PottyLarry> ama hewo
15:50 < PottyLarry> i can make rings of integers
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16:30 < PottyLarry> I seem to be creating my own block chain, are there any peers for testnet1, even testnet2 that I can use?
16:30 < sipa> no
16:30 < PottyLarry> :'(
16:30 < sipa> the code for those was removed years ago
16:30 < sipa> if you want your own testnet, use regtest
16:31 < PottyLarry> i dont want my own testnet
16:31 < PottyLarry> i want to join https://grinexplorer.net chain
16:31 < sipa> then you'll need grin software
16:32 < PottyLarry> i have grin
16:32 < sipa> then what is your question about?
16:32 < sipa> oh, this is wizards
16:32 < esotericnonsense> ha.
16:32 < sipa> i thought you were on another channel
16:32 < PottyLarry> yeah sorry ive got my gringots wizard hat on
16:33 < PottyLarry> following the guide on github, has basically lead me to run my own chain, i need peers
16:33 < esotericnonsense> PottyLarry: unfortunately this is not the channel for literal wizardry.
16:33 < sipa> i don't know what testnet1 and testnet2 mean in the context of grin; i thought were were asking about bitcoin
16:33 < sipa> but you're likely better off asking in grin specific channels
16:33 < PottyLarry> so none of you are crypto blockchain experts?
16:33 < PottyLarry> :'(
16:34 < sipa> this channel is more about theoretical ideas
16:34 < sipa> not specific currencies
16:34 < PottyLarry> I understand. I've seen the chat logs
16:34 < PottyLarry> your all genius
16:35 < PottyLarry> I just figured, this is the place to be.... this is the best mailing list there is
16:36 < PottyLarry> i want to be a hewo
16:36 < PottyLarry> and die
16:37  * PottyLarry fires thunderbolts at all genius
16:37  * PottyLarry runs away tehehehe
16:39 < sipa> please keep it technical
16:41 < PottyLarry> cuckoo has cities, roads, is it just 2 cities, billions of roads, and has to find 1 or 2 roads that connect?
16:42 < PottyLarry> oh shit, its 2 countries, 2 billion cities, and billions of roads?
16:42 < PottyLarry> yeah i'm best just listening to the technical chat. sorry to have bothered.
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22:01 < esotericnonsense> do we have any general consensus on the 'period' we consider nlocktime tx to be valid for the purpose of some future fork (soft or hard) that might restrict their usage?
22:02 < esotericnonsense> for example unless there is some cap on nlocktime I'm not aware of, I could make some tx nlocktimed to 50 years from now and delete the keys such that this nlocktime tx is the only way of me spending it, and then a fork-like change that, for example, disables version 1 transactions or something, even if it's in 40 years' time, would represent a confiscation
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--- Log closed Mon Feb 19 00:00:57 2018