--- Log opened Tue Mar 06 00:00:11 2018
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00:34 < waxwing> tromp, yes, of course (CT is that :)) ... i need to find a way to express the idea that a single challenge can be computationally enough to fix a vector based on m roots amongst p numbers (m/p chance to hit), but this example doesn't make sense (for your reason and perhaps others -- no bandwidth required to communicate a 0 vector!)
00:35 < waxwing> that's one of 2 or three things in the doc i wasn't happy with; i'll be sticking it on github shortly (some annoying conversion ongoing). then can make changes there.
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00:38 < tromp> m/p is also the odds of randomly guessing the discrete log of any of the m generators
00:39 < waxwing> sure, that's good :) trying to argue it's not computationally feasible to get P(e) to be zero
00:43 < waxwing> afk
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05:01 < musalbas> kanzure, what aj said basically. see this thread for more: https://twitter.com/musalbas/status/970735447520546816 I want to be able to commit to a set of values to append to a tree, while proving that i've only appended and not removed anything from the tree, in O(log n) time for n elements added, while supporting non-inclusion proofs
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05:18 < kanzure> i can do you for a drop O(log n) requirement then we talk
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05:26 < musalbas> well we already know how to do it for O(n)
05:27 < musalbas> the question is, if we it can be done for O(log n) for merkle trees that don't support non-inclusion proofs, can it can be done for trees that do, or is there something inherently impossible about it
05:28 < musalbas> if we know it can be done*
05:28 < musalbas> i mean non-membership proofs, not non-inclusion proofs
05:28 < musalbas> well, they're the same thing
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05:50 < waxwing> tromp, i think the best way to state it is something like: you can use a single challenge scalar to assert that two differently constructed commitment sets (or vectors) are actually to the same set of values, by the reasoning that P_1(x) = P_2(x) is an identity, using the commitments as coefficients in P_1, P_2, with the probability argument already mentioned.
05:52 < waxwing> for example you see it play out at the end of sec 4.5, the first inner product proof, where you have (ex+d_x) dot (ey+d_y) = ze^2 + z_1 e + z_0 and you use it to assert z = x dot y
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06:51 < kanzure> .title https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/lightning-dev/2018-February/001031.html
06:51 < yoleaux> [Lightning-dev] Post-Schnorr lightning txes
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07:55 < kanzure> musalbas: you can't get better than O(n) because sorting
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11:11 < stevenroose> Where can I find resources about how Schnorr signatures are being explored in relation to Bitcoin?
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11:12 < guna> hi freinds
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11:12 < Guest28544> hello freinds
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11:14 < Guest28544> why market is going down
11:14 < stevenroose> Is there a fork of libsecp256k1 that has it implemented?
11:14 < sipa> stevenroose: yes, but there are many moving parts
11:14 < sipa> especially with taproot and graftroot recently
11:14 < musalbas> Guest28544 => #bitcoin-pricetalk
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11:16 < Guest28544> any updates on market
11:16 < Guest28544> do you people think crypto market is going to die ?
11:16 < sipa> Guest28544: not here
11:16 < sipa> this channel is for discussion of theoretical ideas, not markets
11:17 < Guest28544> what do you mean ideas
11:17 < sipa> novel cryptography, consensus algorithms, zero knowledge proofs, ...
11:19 < rabidus> like topic says
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11:19 < musalbas> Guest28544, if you want to discuss markets, go to #bitcoin-pricetalk
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12:24 < stevenroose> sipa: I read about taproot, let me check out graftroot
12:24 < stevenroose> So it's still up for a lot of changes?
12:25 < stevenroose> the musig paper was kinda general
12:28 < sipa> the musig paper has very little to do with the schnorr proposal
12:29 < sipa> it's more a "here's a nifty thing we discovered during our research, may be useful"
12:29 < sipa> it solves the problem of how to combine plain public key security (=no need for a setup protocol) with key aggregation (=ability to make the combined signature look like a single single on a combined key)
12:30 < sipa> for multisig in bitcoin we need key aggregation, but no plain public key security
12:30 < sipa> for cross-input signature aggregation we need plain public key security, but not key aggregation
12:30 < sipa> so the two problems can be solved perfectly fine without musig, if they use different solutions
12:31 < sipa> musig is just a nifty way to deal with it if you insist on solving both with the same scheme
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12:42 < stevenroose> sipa: you know any resources that explain how Schnorr signatures can be implemented over an EC?
12:45 < sipa> k = random
12:45 < sipa> R = k*G
12:45 < sipa> P = x*G (x = private key)
12:45 < sipa> m = message
12:46 < sipa> s = k + H(R,P,m)*x
12:46 < sipa> sig = (R,m)
12:46 < sipa> eh
12:46 < sipa> sig = (R,s)
12:47 < naribia> hello wizards, where should I begin if I want to understand and play with crypto primative stuff (like what you're describing sipa)
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12:59 < stevenroose> Hmm, ok, that seems like what I expected. Let me try that.
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13:10 < stevenroose> Wait, sipa, does graftroot allow any M-of-N with constant overhead??
13:10 < sipa> yes
13:10 < stevenroose> N-of-N in the normal signature and any other combo using the surrogates
13:10 < stevenroose> Wow
13:12 < stevenroose> It's funny somehow to hear so many people complain about innovation going slow in Bitcoin, but it also makes sure you don't get a ton of features that get rendered useless by strictly better ones later :p
13:12 < stevenroose> It's basically strictly better than MAST right?
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--- Log closed Wed Mar 07 00:00:12 2018