--- Log opened Tue May 01 00:00:04 2018
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00:27 < waxwing> good point indeed. having had to deal with similar issues, i know it's a big pain to deal with fees in an interactive protocol.
00:27 < waxwing> the watermarking issue remains, but perhaps not having such a watermark is a bit of a high bar to aim for.
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03:52 < waxwing> am i right in thinking you can get the same effect for eltoo, without sighash_noinput, by just doing the on-chain version, and then at closing time creating one overwriting transaction, with the disadvantage being only that in non-cooperation the publication will/may have to be the entire update set instead of ~ 2 hops with sighash_noinput ?
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04:18 < ZmnSCPxj> Good morning waxwing, my understanding, yes, that is indeed possible
04:19 < ZmnSCPxj> The issue is that in an uncooperative close, every update needs to get published, spending significant blockchain space.
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04:20 < waxwing> yeah, that's how i saw it. it's still of interest though, if only for fun or perhaps for testing. imagine coding it up now and running it with a limitation of say 10-20 updates per channel.
04:20 < waxwing> you also get to avoid having to set up the nlocktime stuff if you don't use sighash_noinput
04:21 < waxwing> but apart from the space usage issue, there may be others, i wonder
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05:06 < ZmnSCPxj> Good morning waxwing, for small numbers of updates it may be feasible to use CSV variant of Spillman channels, which are the basis of invalidation trees
05:07 < ZmnSCPxj> It would be fairly interesting to do things that way, admittedly, but the blockspace usage is very much excessive
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05:08 < ZmnSCPxj> I find the eltoo construction quite similar to OP_WITHDRAWPROOFVERIFY actually
05:09 < ZmnSCPxj> you perform an OP_WITHDRAWPROOFVERIFY that has a CSV encumberance
05:09 < ZmnSCPxj> which can be gainsaid by an even longer OP_WITHDRAWPROOFVERIFY
05:09 < ZmnSCPxj> and so on
05:09 < ZmnSCPxj> this time with incrementing nLockTime
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05:39 < waxwing> oh appears Zmn.. is gone, i'm curious, spillman channels are unidirectional channels, right? not sure the connection, but, also, i don't know what's meant by invalidation trees.
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05:40 < waxwing> oh, i see, it's in the "duplex" part of the wiki page, more to read :)
05:40 < andytoshi> waxwing: invalidation trees are from https://www.tik.ee.ethz.ch/file/716b955c130e6c703fac336ea17b1670/duplex-micropayment-channels.pdf
05:40 < andytoshi> yep :P
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21:43 < ZmnSCPxj> Good morning waxwing, ZmnSCPxj is never gone, but has many eyes
21:44 < ZmnSCPxj> You are right, I misremembered Spillman channels
21:44 < ZmnSCPxj> There is an intermediate stage between Spillman channels and the full Decker-Wattenhofer invalidation trees, where a CSV is used
21:45 < ZmnSCPxj> Or rather decrementing `nSequence` is used
21:45 < ZmnSCPxj> to allow a bidirectional channel with a limited number of updates
21:46 < ZmnSCPxj> The bidirectional channel has no time-based lifetime, but has a lifetime based on maximum number of updates
21:46 < ZmnSCPxj> unlike Spillman channels which have a maximum lifetime and are unidirectional
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21:46 < ZmnSCPxj> You have a funding transaction, a trigger transaction, and a settlement transaction
21:47 < ZmnSCPxj> The settlement tranasction is the one which is updated each time with a decrementing `nSequence`
21:47 < ZmnSCPxj> The first settlement is always the maximum `nSequence` you support
21:47 < ZmnSCPxj> and each update has a new settlement transaction signed by both parties that has a lower `nSequence` then previous
21:48 < ZmnSCPxj> The smallest `nSequence` is the one that can get onchain, being able to successfully spend the trigger transaction before any other versions of the settlement transaction
21:48 < ZmnSCPxj> thus the latest state is the one that is published onchain
21:49 < ZmnSCPxj> Invalidation trees just add more `nSequence`-encumbered transactions between the trigger transaction and the settlement transaction
21:50 < ZmnSCPxj> When the settlement transaction reaches its minimum `nSequence`, we just decrement the previous invalidation tree transaction `nSequence` and reset the settlment transaction to maximum `nSequence`
21:50 < ZmnSCPxj> and so on
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--- Log closed Wed May 02 00:00:05 2018