--- Log opened Thu Jun 07 00:00:39 2018
00:23 -!- vicenteH [~user@35.233.15.37.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
00:25 -!- harrymm [~harrymm@104.207.83.58] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
00:29 -!- vicenteH [~user@35.233.15.37.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
00:30 -!- TheoStorm [~dnaleor@host-lzquwqj.cbn1.zeelandnet.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
00:31 -!- meZee [~SwedFTP@unaffiliated/swedftp] has left #bitcoin-wizards []
00:42 -!- itsme_ [~textual@x4dbe47f0.dyn.telefonica.de] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
00:42 -!- TheoStorm [~dnaleor@host-lzquwqj.cbn1.zeelandnet.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
00:57 -!- Dyaheon [~Dya@dsl-trebng21-58c19c-197.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
01:00 -!- TheoStorm [~dnaleor@host-lzquwqj.cbn1.zeelandnet.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
01:03 -!- achow101 [~achow101@unaffiliated/achow101] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
01:07 -!- Dyaheon [~Dya@dsl-trebng21-58c19c-197.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
01:10 -!- achow101 [~achow101@unaffiliated/achow101] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
01:13 -!- TheoStorm [~dnaleor@host-lzquwqj.cbn1.zeelandnet.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
01:28 -!- domwoe [~domwoe@2001:67c:10ec:52c5:8000::12ca] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
01:31 -!- TheoStorm [~dnaleor@host-lzquwqj.cbn1.zeelandnet.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds]
01:34 < domwoe> Andrew Yao: Scaling Nakamoto Consensus to Thousands of Transactions per Second https://arxiv.org/pdf/1805.03870.pdf
01:35 -!- vicenteH [~user@35.233.15.37.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
01:42 -!- vicenteH [~user@35.233.15.37.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
01:51 -!- TheoStorm [~dnaleor@host-lzquwqj.cbn1.zeelandnet.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
01:53 -!- d9b4bef9 [~d9b4bef9@web501.webfaction.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
01:54 -!- d9b4bef9 [~d9b4bef9@web501.webfaction.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
02:12 -!- CheckDavid [uid14990@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-sbzxpfsuizlalsap] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
02:16 -!- jaromil [~jaromil@devuan/developer/jaromil] has quit [Quit: http://www.dyne.org]
02:17 -!- jaromil [~jaromil@chat.dyne.org] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
02:17 -!- jaromil [~jaromil@chat.dyne.org] has quit [Changing host]
02:17 -!- jaromil [~jaromil@devuan/developer/jaromil] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
03:08 -!- vicenteH [~user@35.233.15.37.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
03:10 -!- vicenteH [~user@35.233.15.37.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
03:15 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
03:19 -!- Aaronvan_ [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
03:22 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
03:24 -!- Krellan [~Krellan@2601:640:4000:9258:391e:51b4:8ced:33c9] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
03:25 -!- Krellan [~Krellan@2601:640:4000:9258:784b:a0f5:5b2d:8545] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
03:34 -!- grzs [pinne@bsd.douchedata.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
03:37 < bsm117532> "If two blocks in an epoch have no partial order relationship, Conflux breaks ties deterministically with the unique ids of the two blocks."
03:37 < bsm117532> Like hashgraph, this algorithm is not a work-order.
03:38 < bsm117532> They insert an additional PRNG essentially that decides the order of nodes.
03:38 < bsm117532> One can grind that PRNG for advantage.
03:38 < bsm117532> FWIW their "total order" is NOT the natural total order on the graph (defined by graph cuts, what I called "cohorts")
03:40 < bsm117532> IMHO One should NOT use topological sorting on a PoW chain, because it introduces a new, costless way to reverse transactions by rearranging the graph structure.
03:41 < bsm117532> The "highest work subgraph" isn't that hard to compute...
03:41 < bsm117532> people should use it.
03:48 -!- thrmo [~thrmo@unaffiliated/thrmo] has quit [Quit: Waiting for .007]
04:03 -!- vicenteH [~user@35.233.15.37.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
04:03 -!- vicenteH [~user@35.233.15.37.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
04:04 -!- itsme__ [~textual@x4dbefcce.dyn.telefonica.de] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
04:07 -!- itsme_ [~textual@x4dbe47f0.dyn.telefonica.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
04:30 < bsm117532> One point worth noting...a PoW DAG cannot achieve a block time faster than a ~few seconds.  At block rates much faster than that, the natural total order never appears. (you never have a blockchain-like event where only one block appears which is everyone's ancestor or descendant)
04:30 < bsm117532> So for block rates faster than that you have to invent a different double-spend solution, because work-order fails.
04:31 -!- TheoStorm [~dnaleor@host-lzquwqj.cbn1.zeelandnet.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
04:31 < bsm117532> This is why DAGs are only marginal as a scaling solution.
04:32 < bsm117532> The better motivation for using a DAG is that they're asynchronous, where a blockchain is synchronous.
04:50 -!- thrmo [~thrmo@unaffiliated/thrmo] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
04:52 -!- TheoStorm [~dnaleor@host-lzquwqj.cbn1.zeelandnet.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
05:01 -!- TheoStorm [~dnaleor@host-lzquwqj.cbn1.zeelandnet.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds]
05:06 -!- laurentmt [~Thunderbi@195.181.167.149] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
05:06 -!- SopaXorzTaker [~SopaXorzT@unaffiliated/sopaxorztaker] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
05:08 -!- d9b4bef9 [~d9b4bef9@web501.webfaction.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
05:09 -!- d9b4bef9 [~d9b4bef9@web501.webfaction.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
05:19 -!- TheoStorm [~dnaleor@host-lzquwqj.cbn1.zeelandnet.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
05:21 -!- CheckDavid [uid14990@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-sbzxpfsuizlalsap] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity]
05:32 -!- itsme__ [~textual@x4dbefcce.dyn.telefonica.de] has quit [Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com]
05:34 -!- Krellan [~Krellan@2601:640:4000:9258:784b:a0f5:5b2d:8545] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
05:34 -!- Krellan [~Krellan@2601:640:4000:9258:784b:a0f5:5b2d:8545] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
05:35 -!- SopaXorzTaker [~SopaXorzT@unaffiliated/sopaxorztaker] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
05:55 -!- Hunger- [~Hunger@zer0days.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
05:59 -!- Hunger- [~Hunger@zer0days.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
05:59 -!- Guyver2 [AdiIRC@guyver2.xs4all.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
06:32 -!- Chris_Stewart_5 [~chris@unaffiliated/chris-stewart-5/x-3612383] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
06:59 -!- son0p [~ff@181.33.171.20] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
07:06 -!- TheoStorm [~dnaleor@host-lzquwqj.cbn1.zeelandnet.nl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
07:11 -!- dougsland [douglas@nat/redhat/x-ssdnnrsvptyayjsz] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
07:13 -!- TheoStorm [~dnaleor@host-lzquwqj.cbn1.zeelandnet.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
07:13 < nsh> bsm117532, can you explain how DAGs are asynchronous, or point to something that helps?
07:32 -!- laurentmt [~Thunderbi@195.181.167.149] has quit [Quit: laurentmt]
07:32 -!- belcher [~belcher@unaffiliated/belcher] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
07:41 -!- Krellan [~Krellan@2601:640:4000:9258:784b:a0f5:5b2d:8545] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
07:42 -!- Krellan [~Krellan@2601:640:4000:9258:784b:a0f5:5b2d:8545] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
07:43 -!- son0p [~ff@181.33.171.20] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
07:43 -!- Aaronvan_ [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
08:12 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
08:24 -!- domwoe [~domwoe@2001:67c:10ec:52c5:8000::12ca] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
08:26 -!- dougsland [douglas@nat/redhat/x-ssdnnrsvptyayjsz] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
08:30 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
08:31 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
08:32 < fluffypony> has anyone written up the issues with Plasma? it's come up in convo recently, and the only things I can remember off the top of my head are SPV reorg proof issues -> honest minority assumption
08:35 -!- dgenr8 [~dgenr8@unaffiliated/dgenr8] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
08:35 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds]
08:36 -!- Emcy [~Emcy@unaffiliated/emcy] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds]
08:38 -!- Emcy [~Emcy@unaffiliated/emcy] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
08:40 -!- TheoStorm [~dnaleor@host-lzquwqj.cbn1.zeelandnet.nl] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
08:40 -!- TheoStorm [~dnaleor@host-lzquwqj.cbn1.zeelandnet.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
08:41 -!- intcat [~zshlyk@gateway/tor-sasl/intcat] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
08:43 -!- intcat [~zshlyk@gateway/tor-sasl/intcat] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
08:52 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
08:55 -!- p0nziph0ne [p0nziph0ne@gateway/vpn/privateinternetaccess/p0nziph0ne] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
09:02 -!- Chris_Stewart_5 [~chris@unaffiliated/chris-stewart-5/x-3612383] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
09:04 -!- TheoStorm [~dnaleor@host-lzquwqj.cbn1.zeelandnet.nl] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
09:07 -!- madacol [~madacol@181.60.96.150] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
09:09 < Varunram> fluffypony: there are some concerns about how complicated exit strategies are and how to simplify them. And then there's the standard stuff about evil miners
09:10 < Varunram> there might be some more issues with plasma cash though
09:12 -!- madacol [~madacol@181.60.96.150] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds]
09:19 -!- madacol [~madacol@181.60.96.150] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
09:37 -!- nuncanada [~dude@187.65.34.254] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
09:38 -!- Chris_Stewart_5 [~chris@unaffiliated/chris-stewart-5/x-3612383] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
09:42 -!- intcat [~zshlyk@gateway/tor-sasl/intcat] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
09:44 -!- intcat [~zshlyk@gateway/tor-sasl/intcat] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
09:46 -!- dEBRUYNE [~dEBRUYNE@unaffiliated/debruyne] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds]
09:50 -!- dEBRUYNE [~dEBRUYNE@unaffiliated/debruyne] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
09:57 -!- madacol [~madacol@181.60.96.150] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
10:00 -!- p0nziph0ne [p0nziph0ne@gateway/vpn/privateinternetaccess/p0nziph0ne] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
10:08 -!- thrmo [~thrmo@unaffiliated/thrmo] has quit [Quit: Waiting for .007]
10:09 -!- Krellan [~Krellan@2601:640:4000:9258:784b:a0f5:5b2d:8545] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
10:10 -!- madacol [~madacol@181.60.96.150] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
10:10 -!- EpicBaldGuy [~EpicBaldG@2601:18d:77f:6dd8:c951:1333:7b43:52c1] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
10:14 -!- son0p [~ff@181.136.99.9] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
10:19 -!- Emcy [~Emcy@unaffiliated/emcy] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds]
10:19 -!- mnkk_ [~mnkk@ip5f5ae26b.dynamic.kabel-deutschland.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds]
10:28 -!- Intensity [hwRCPboAC3@panix5.panix.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
10:30 -!- Intensity [reIEC4R9-3@panix5.panix.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
10:41 -!- nuncanada [~dude@187.65.34.254] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]
10:42 -!- nuncanada [~dude@187.65.34.254] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
10:43 -!- dougsland [~douglas@c-73-234-93-65.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
10:50 -!- EpicBaldGuy [~EpicBaldG@2601:18d:77f:6dd8::3936] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
10:57 -!- Giszmo [~leo@ip-213-233.219.201.nextelmovil.cl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
11:08 -!- Guest77272 is now known as wbnns
11:08 -!- wbnns [sid105317@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-uwmvmiwlmcvbsggz] has quit [Changing host]
11:08 -!- wbnns [sid105317@21/bitcoin/binns] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
11:12 -!- EpicBaldGuy [~EpicBaldG@2601:18d:77f:6dd8::3936] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
11:16 -!- thrmo [~thrmo@unaffiliated/thrmo] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
11:43 -!- son0p [~ff@181.136.99.9] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal]
11:45 < maaku> bsm117532: you might like this. i did a back of the envelope calculation and merge-mined sharding with full validation of all shards but a maturity period for transfers (to keep them asynchronous) can raise throughput by about 100x
11:46 -!- gmaxwell [gmaxwell@wikimedia/KatWalsh/x-0001] has left #bitcoin-wizards []
11:48 -!- DougieBot5000 [~DougieBot@unaffiliated/dougiebot5000] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
11:48 -!- DougieBot5000 [~DougieBot@unaffiliated/dougiebot5000] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
11:49 -!- dougsland [~douglas@c-73-234-93-65.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
11:50 -!- dgenr8 [~dgenr8@unaffiliated/dgenr8] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
11:50 -!- dougsland [~douglas@c-73-234-93-65.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
11:55 -!- madacol [~madacol@181.60.96.150] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds]
11:55 -!- Krellan [~Krellan@50-242-94-241-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
11:58 -!- Emcy [~Emcy@unaffiliated/emcy] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
12:00 -!- Krellan [~Krellan@50-242-94-241-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
12:01 -!- alferz [~alferz@unaffiliated/alfer] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
12:14 -!- alferz [~alferz@unaffiliated/alfer] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]
12:15 -!- Krellan [~Krellan@50-242-94-241-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
12:20 -!- Krellan [~Krellan@50-242-94-241-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
12:23 -!- Giszmo [~leo@ip-213-233.219.201.nextelmovil.cl] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
12:26 < Chris_Stewart_5> maaku: Is there any literature on this?
12:31 -!- Krellan [~Krellan@50-242-94-241-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
12:35 -!- Krellan [~Krellan@50-242-94-241-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
12:41 -!- Giszmo [~leo@ip-63-233.219.201.nextelmovil.cl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
13:19 -!- belcher [~belcher@unaffiliated/belcher] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
13:53 -!- nuncanada2 [~dude@187.65.34.254] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
13:57 -!- nuncanada [~dude@187.65.34.254] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds]
14:13 -!- Guyver2 [AdiIRC@guyver2.xs4all.nl] has quit [Quit: Going offline, see ya! (www.adiirc.com)]
14:19 -!- Krellan [~Krellan@50-242-94-241-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
14:23 -!- Krellan [~Krellan@50-242-94-241-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
15:05 -!- madacol [~madacol@181.60.96.150] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
15:06 -!- Giszmo [~leo@ip-63-233.219.201.nextelmovil.cl] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
15:10 -!- madacol [~madacol@181.60.96.150] has quit [Quit: leaving]
15:18 -!- TheoStorm [~dnaleor@host-lzquwqj.cbn1.zeelandnet.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
15:20 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
15:21 < maaku> Chris_Stewart_5: i don't know
15:23 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
15:23 < bsm117532> maaku: Yes it's basically 600s block time divided by the optimal block time for a braid/DAG ~few seconds -- so 100s or so, but this does not take into account throughput or validation time.
15:24 < bsm117532> So I agree with 100x if you can validate a block in under a second.
15:24 < maaku> wasn't tallking about braids. I'm not convinced any DAG structure can work in this way without extremely long maturity periods for joining
15:25 < bsm117532> nsh: Only one miner can add a block to a blockchain -- hence, synchronous.  Two (or more) miners can simultaneously add a block to a braid/DAG at the same time.
15:25 < bsm117532> maaku: you'll have to explain the "sharding" part of your above statement.
15:25 < bsm117532> Also "joining"
15:26 < bsm117532> With the right sharding proposal, it can be much higher than 100x...
15:26 < maaku> bsm117532: think sidechains, not braids/dags
15:26 < bsm117532> please elaborate ;-)
15:27 < maaku> sharding implies hard broundaries. moving between shards is an explicit operation, and requires proof-of-bury for the request to process on the receiving end
15:29 < bsm117532> mmm no.  I prefer sharding that operates more like RAID...it should be transparent.
15:29 < bsm117532> But please continue
15:29 -!- Giszmo [~leo@pc-72-54-46-190.cm.vtr.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
15:30 < bsm117532> FWIW that's what Kadena is proposing
15:30 < bsm117532> http://kadena.io/docs/chainweb-v15.pdf
15:32 -!- robmyers [sid75499@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-sqaftwhgjbincdiz] has quit [Changing host]
15:32 -!- robmyers [sid75499@gnu/social/robmyers] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
15:35 < bsm117532> I hate the idea of making transaction authors do so much work.  A good system should be transparent to the user.
15:36 < maaku> ok well i'm not really interested in discussing braids. just thought you'd iike that result
15:39 -!- robmyers [sid75499@gnu/social/robmyers] has quit []
15:39 -!- robmyers [sid75499@gnu/social/robmyers] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
15:39 -!- robmyers [sid75499@gnu/social/robmyers] has quit [Client Quit]
15:39 -!- merlinsbeard [~Beard_of_@195.181.166.147] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
15:46 < bsm117532> I don't understand the result then...
15:46 < bsm117532> And what's wrong with braids? :-P
15:48 < bsm117532> FWIW Kadena's proposal is a DAG...because the merge-mining references other chains.  I wouldn't be surprised at a 100x speedup, but it depends on the exact sharding mechanism.
15:51 < bsm117532> Multiple cross-referenced merge-mined sidechains = DAG.  You can approach it from gluing synchronous things together, or accepting your fate and making a DAG from the beginning.
15:52 < maaku> bsm117532: not once anywhere that I have ever seen has anyone provided an actual proof that braids eliminates the failure modes it claims to fix
15:52 < bsm117532> Which failure modes?
15:53  * bsm117532 is in writing-proofs mode.
15:53 < bsm117532> I admit I've neglected this work for 2 years, sorry.
15:57 < maaku> failure modes = highest payout by not cooperating in the expected way
15:57 < maaku> in the same way that selfish mining is a failure mode of vanilla consensus
15:58 < maaku> every description of braids I've ever read states something like "using a DAG will fix selfish mining" then has pages and pages of DAG charts... and never actually circles back around to selfish mining, cartel formation, or any other failure mode
15:59 < maaku> there's literally zero public game theoretic analysis as far as i can tell
16:05 -!- Aaronvan_ [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
16:06 -!- Aaronva__ [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
16:07 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds]
16:08 -!- Chris_Stewart_5 [~chris@unaffiliated/chris-stewart-5/x-3612383] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
16:09 -!- Aaronvan_ [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
16:13 < bsm117532> gotcha.  Will work on it.  Thanks!
16:14 < bsm117532> Proof that it breaks selfish mining is on my radar anyway, but the simple argument is that by removing the pay differential between main-chain and orphan blocks, there's zero incentive to selfish mine.
16:15 < bsm117532> A withheld block would get exactly the same pay as a published block.
16:16 < bsm117532> That argument is so simple as to not need a proof.  But I'd been planning to do some simulations demonstrating it.
16:16 < bsm117532> If you have ideas for a stronger proof, I'd be happy to hear them.
16:23 < bsm117532> A hard proof that it returns to 51% from 34% is absolutely required.
16:30 -!- Krellan [~Krellan@50-242-94-241-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
16:52 -!- Krellan [~Krellan@50-242-94-241-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds]
16:56 -!- Krellan [~Krellan@50-242-94-241-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
17:06 -!- Krellan [~Krellan@50-242-94-241-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
17:10 -!- Intensity [reIEC4R9-3@panix5.panix.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
17:15 -!- Chris_Stewart_5 [~chris@unaffiliated/chris-stewart-5/x-3612383] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
17:18 -!- Intensity [f6p1OfQSG4@panix5.panix.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
17:21 -!- Krellan [~Krellan@50-242-94-241-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
17:26 -!- Krellan [~Krellan@50-242-94-241-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
17:32 -!- Belkaar [~Belkaar@unaffiliated/belkaar] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
17:36 -!- Belkaar [~Belkaar@xdsl-87-78-95-39.netcologne.de] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
17:36 -!- Belkaar [~Belkaar@xdsl-87-78-95-39.netcologne.de] has quit [Changing host]
17:36 -!- Belkaar [~Belkaar@unaffiliated/belkaar] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
17:40 -!- nuncanada2 [~dude@187.65.34.254] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
17:40 -!- Giszmo [~leo@pc-72-54-46-190.cm.vtr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds]
17:45 -!- Belkaar [~Belkaar@unaffiliated/belkaar] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
17:48 -!- Aaronva__ is now known as AaronvanW
17:53 -!- Belkaar [~Belkaar@xdsl-87-78-95-39.netcologne.de] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
17:53 -!- Belkaar [~Belkaar@xdsl-87-78-95-39.netcologne.de] has quit [Changing host]
17:53 -!- Belkaar [~Belkaar@unaffiliated/belkaar] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
17:55 -!- Krellan [~Krellan@50-242-94-241-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
17:56 -!- Giszmo [~leo@ip-129-233.219.201.nextelmovil.cl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
18:00 -!- Krellan [~Krellan@50-242-94-241-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds]
18:02 -!- Belkaar [~Belkaar@unaffiliated/belkaar] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
18:03 -!- Krellan [~Krellan@50-242-94-241-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
18:08 -!- Krellan [~Krellan@50-242-94-241-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
18:09 -!- Belkaar [~Belkaar@xdsl-87-78-95-39.netcologne.de] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
18:09 -!- Belkaar [~Belkaar@xdsl-87-78-95-39.netcologne.de] has quit [Changing host]
18:09 -!- Belkaar [~Belkaar@unaffiliated/belkaar] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
18:18 -!- Cory [~Cory@unaffiliated/cory] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
18:23 -!- Cory [~Cory@unaffiliated/cory] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
18:26 -!- merlinsbeard [~Beard_of_@195.181.166.147] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
18:56 -!- ghost43 [~daer@gateway/tor-sasl/daer] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
18:58 -!- ghost43 [~daer@gateway/tor-sasl/daer] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
19:10 -!- nephyrin [~neph@67.183.153.159] has quit [Quit: ... besides, it was hot]
19:12 -!- Belkaar [~Belkaar@unaffiliated/belkaar] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
19:19 -!- Belkaar [~Belkaar@xdsl-87-78-95-39.netcologne.de] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
19:19 -!- Belkaar [~Belkaar@xdsl-87-78-95-39.netcologne.de] has quit [Changing host]
19:19 -!- Belkaar [~Belkaar@unaffiliated/belkaar] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
19:32 -!- TheoStorm [~dnaleor@host-lzquwqj.cbn1.zeelandnet.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
19:34 -!- Aaronvan_ [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
19:36 -!- Chris_Stewart_5 [~chris@unaffiliated/chris-stewart-5/x-3612383] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds]
19:37 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
19:43 -!- Aaronvan_ [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has quit []
19:44 -!- TheoStorm [~dnaleor@host-lzquwqj.cbn1.zeelandnet.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
20:06 -!- samm__ [~samm@176-161-115-196.abo.bbox.fr] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
20:08 -!- samm_ [~samm@176-161-115-196.abo.bbox.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
20:32 -!- TheoStorm [~dnaleor@host-lzquwqj.cbn1.zeelandnet.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
20:36 -!- dougsland [~douglas@c-73-234-93-65.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
20:40 -!- Giszmo [~leo@ip-129-233.219.201.nextelmovil.cl] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
20:50 -!- TheoStorm [~dnaleor@host-lzquwqj.cbn1.zeelandnet.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
20:55 -!- Giszmo [~leo@ip-41-234-219-201.nextelmovil.cl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
21:08 -!- napo1eon [metro@72.20.43.106] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
21:31 -!- napo1eon [~ask@72.20.43.106] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
21:47 -!- TheoStorm [~dnaleor@host-lzquwqj.cbn1.zeelandnet.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
22:00 -!- TheoStorm [~dnaleor@host-lzquwqj.cbn1.zeelandnet.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
22:17 -!- TheoStorm [~dnaleor@host-lzquwqj.cbn1.zeelandnet.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
22:30 -!- TheoStorm [~dnaleor@host-lzquwqj.cbn1.zeelandnet.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
22:40 -!- CubicEarths [~cubiceart@c-73-181-185-197.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
22:47 -!- TheoStorm [~dnaleor@host-lzquwqj.cbn1.zeelandnet.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
23:04 -!- TheoStorm [~dnaleor@host-lzquwqj.cbn1.zeelandnet.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
23:10 -!- vicenteH [~user@35.233.15.37.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
23:10 -!- vicenteH [~user@35.233.15.37.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
23:17 -!- TheoStorm [~dnaleor@host-lzquwqj.cbn1.zeelandnet.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds]
23:19 -!- TheoStorm [~dnaleor@host-lzquwqj.cbn1.zeelandnet.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
23:32 -!- TheoStorm [~dnaleor@host-lzquwqj.cbn1.zeelandnet.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
23:44 -!- TheoStorm [~dnaleor@host-lzquwqj.cbn1.zeelandnet.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
--- Log closed Fri Jun 08 00:00:40 2018