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02:44 < stevenroose> There is no way to make a bitcoin transaction validly signed, but never valid to be confirmed, right? Like a locktime ad infinitum or so
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09:19 < maaku> stevenroose: a lock-time of 0xffffffff would achieve that, no?
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09:24 < andytoshi> would spending an already-spent input also achieve your goal?
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09:25 < maaku> or generally speaking, spending outputs of an invalid transaction
09:26 < sdhand> stevenroose: how do you mean validly signed?
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09:26 < sdhand> actually never mind, I misread the question, sorry.
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11:43 < stevenroose> maaku: a lock-time of 0xffffffff, is that a valid one in a hundred years or so?
11:43 < stevenroose> it might do that in theory, but it's less nifty
11:43 < stevenroose> and means your concept can't be used in 90 years because then it's an actual near locktime :D
11:43 < maaku> stevenroose: the whole block chain stops working simultaneously as that becomes valid
11:45 < maaku> a lock-time of 2^32 - 1 requires a block timestamp of 2 ^ 32, which is not possible
11:45 < maaku> all chain progress halts
11:46 < maaku> although from a practical standpoint, there'd probably be some sort of hard-fork that we move to, or maybe it's fixed as part of forward blocks and we stop caring about compatibility blocks by then
11:46 < maaku> and the tx would be valid in the forward block
11:47 < maaku> I would do the spend-output-of-invalid-or-already-spent-UTXO solution instead. that's cleaner and always works
11:48 < maaku> *all chain progress halts at UTC time 2^32
11:48 < sipa> what's the point of a transaction that never becomes valid?
11:48 < sipa> that's semantically equivalent with just an invalid tx, as far as i can tell
11:49 < maaku> sipa: I'm guessing, but you could do stuff like sign messages encoded in the outputs
11:49 < sipa> you don't need a transaction for that, though
11:49 < maaku> which provides a signmessage alternative that supports hardware wallets, etc.
11:49 < maaku> with no changes
11:49 < sipa> ah, perhaps!
11:49 < maaku> I've looked at it in the past for that purpose specifically
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11:50 < maaku> or, e.g., proof of reserve
11:51 < maaku> where you make and sign a consolidating tx, but don't actually want it to confirm because you like having more than one utxo
11:51 < maaku> (that would be a good use for lock-time=0xffffffff btw)
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13:21 < kanzure> signmessage threw me for a loop because of its weird format expectations on the underlying message
13:21 < kanzure> or rather, verifymessage.
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15:41 < stevenroose> maaku: sorry for late replies.. yeah thinking about proof of reserve
15:41 < maaku> Is there a historical mining return calculator? E.g. "if I turned on 2Th/s on Dec 12 2017, how much bitcoin would it generate?"
15:42 < maaku> Using actual difficulty adjustments I mean.
15:42 < maaku> I could script something up but it seems like such a tool should exist... my google-fu is failing me.
15:42 < stevenroose> couldn't a locktime 0xfff... cause trouble if the utxos you're trying to proof ownership over also have spending paths with locktimes
15:43 < maaku> No, because locktime would always be >= whatever is being checked
15:44 < stevenroose> yeah so lets say you own the immediate path and someone else owns the locktime path in 2 weeks. if your PoR tx is ad infinitum, you can't get into the path where you own the keys for
15:45 < stevenroose> Not sure how lightning txs or classic multisig wallet backup solutions work with that.
15:46 < stevenroose> I guess with multisigs, you own all the keys for the locktime (= backup) case. Lightning not sure. Is more CSV stuff I'd guess
15:46 < maaku> anything lightning or multisig the other person wold have to sign for the thing you're signing
15:47 < maaku> oh wait i misunderstood your point
15:47 < maaku> stevenroose: for proof of reserve and such I prefer making it invalid by other means
15:49 < stevenroose> maaku: oh, I understood you said proof or reserve was a good use case of the locktime ad infinitum
15:49 < maaku> make it have an empty but invalid input, or an invalid output or something
15:49 < stevenroose> It also makes things harder. F.e. to verify the tx.
15:49 < maaku> well except that you point out it isn't for some escrow things
15:49 < stevenroose> With locktime, you can just see if your mempool accepts it.
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15:50 < maaku> *it isn't possible for some escrows.
15:50 < stevenroose> How do you validate a tx that spends non-existing outpoints
15:50 < maaku> it has a valid preimage input, it's just the input is invalid
15:51 < maaku> ..why do you need the utxo set to validate?
15:51 < maaku> these are separate issues.
15:51 < maaku> (1) given input preimages, is the tx hypothetically valid if it's inputs are valid (this is what CheckTransaction does)
15:51 < maaku> and (2) are the inputs actually UTXOs or in the mempool
15:51 < maaku> you don't need (2)
15:52 < maaku> also i don't think you care about things like minimum relay fee
15:52 < maaku> or standardness checks
15:52 < stevenroose> You kinda do if you want to proof how much money you own :D But yeah you could verify other inputs afterwards
15:52 < maaku> which would cause it not to be in the mempool
15:52 < sipa> stevenroose: things with a locktime in the future aren't accepted to the mempool either
15:53 < maaku> stevenroose: you gettxout the inputs
15:55 < stevenroose> Thanks for clearing things up :)
16:01 < kanzure> https://github.com/git/git/blob/master/Documentation/technical/hash-function-transition.txt
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