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#bitcoin-wizards 06:55 -!- vcorem [~vcorem@31.154.51.166] has quit [Client Quit] 07:00 -!- vcorem [~vcorem@31.154.51.166] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:00 -!- vcorem [~vcorem@31.154.51.166] has quit [Client Quit] 07:01 -!- vcorem [~vcorem@31.154.51.166] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:01 -!- vcorem [~vcorem@31.154.51.166] has quit [Client Quit] 07:01 -!- vcorem [~vcorem@31.154.51.166] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:01 -!- vcorem [~vcorem@31.154.51.166] has quit [Client Quit] 07:01 -!- vcorem [~vcorem@31.154.51.166] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:04 -!- vcorem [~vcorem@31.154.51.166] has quit [Client Quit] 07:08 -!- TheoStorm [~dnaleor@host-lzquwqj.cbn1.zeelandnet.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 07:18 -!- vcorem [~vcorem@31.154.51.166] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:20 -!- TheoStorm [~dnaleor@host-lzquwqj.cbn1.zeelandnet.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:26 -!- Chris_Stewart_5 [~chris@unaffiliated/chris-stewart-5/x-3612383] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:34 -!- cdecker [~cdecker@mail.snyke.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:08 -!- michaelsdunn1 [~michaelsd@unaffiliated/michaelsdunn1] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:14 -!- p0nziph0ne [p0nziph0ne@gateway/vpn/privateinternetaccess/p0nziph0ne] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 08:19 -!- BlueMatt [~BlueMatt@unaffiliated/bluematt] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:27 -!- p0nziph0ne [p0nziph0ne@gateway/vpn/privateinternetaccess/p0nziph0ne] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:30 -!- kallisteiros [scientist@gateway/vpn/privateinternetaccess/kallisteiros] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:37 < kanzure> https://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/questions/77751/can-spv-clients-offer-proof-of-absence-of-a-transaction/77764#77764 08:41 * nsh not quite unconvinced 08:41 < nsh> *convinced 08:42 -!- tin_ [~tyn@73.93.143.135] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:46 < nsh> "If you are not worried about revealing information, then you can commit to the set of data items in one Merkle tree, and to the frontier of that set in another Merkle tree. A frontier is the set of ancestors to all values that are not in the tree (note that this is about the same size as the size of the set itself). Then, in order to prove that a value is inside the set you work with the first tree, and in order to prove that it is not you work with 08:46 < nsh> the second tree. " 08:46 < nsh> - https://crypto.stackexchange.com/questions/31914/proof-of-non-membership-on-a-merkle-tree 08:47 < kanzure> for ordered trees wouldn't you just reveal both the neighbors that should be surrounding the expected member, and show that therefore the member is not there? 08:48 < nsh> only if the ordering is arithmetic i guess 08:48 < nsh> current topological ordering of txs wouldn't have that property 08:48 < nsh> or am i being stupid? 08:50 < nsh> 'ordered' vs. 'sorted' i guess 08:55 -!- jamesob [~james@100.38.11.146] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:56 -!- Krellan [~Krellan@2601:640:4000:9258:390e:963f:4db3:d60] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:57 -!- Krellan [~Krellan@2601:640:4000:9258:390e:963f:4db3:d60] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:01 -!- schmidty [~schmidty@104-7-216-111.lightspeed.austtx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:01 -!- schmidty [~schmidty@104-7-216-111.lightspeed.austtx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Changing host] 09:01 -!- schmidty [~schmidty@unaffiliated/schmidty] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:34 < maaku> reveal the hashes of a block, and the midstate of the coinbase to prove it's the lowest level? 09:34 < maaku> That's not exactly SPV, but it's 100k of data instead of 2-4MB 09:35 -!- TheoStorm [~dnaleor@host-lzquwqj.cbn1.zeelandnet.nl] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 09:36 < maaku> nsh: I think the point is a commitment to an ordered tree is basically the same as the frontier except more useful, so what's the point of the frontier tree? 09:38 * nsh nods 09:39 < RubenSomsen> isn't client side filtering (neutrino) a way to prove non-inclusion? 09:39 < nsh> discussed here: https://gist.github.com/chris-belcher/eb9abe417d74a7b5f20aabe6bff10de0 "Sorted merkle tree as solution to issue #693 [of JoinMarket]" 09:40 < sipa> RubenSomsen: possibly, if it's committed 09:41 < RubenSomsen> I'd answer on stackexchange but my reputation is below 50 haha 09:43 < sipa> fix it. 09:43 < nsh> cf. https://crypto.stackexchange.com/questions/48594/homomorphic-set-hash-with-membership-proof (perhaps bulletproofs answer/comment would fit here too) 09:43 < RubenSomsen> sipa: will do :) 09:44 < nsh> "Proofs of presence/absence require you to be able to remove the additive inverse from the mapping." 09:46 < sipa> nsh: sounds like cryprographic accumulators are the solution to that question 09:46 * nsh nods 09:48 < nsh> the statement by McElrath that trusted setup is required is no longer holds though 09:50 < nsh> this looks interesting too: https://kodu.ut.ee/~lipmaa/papers/lip12b/cl-accum.pdf (secure accumulators w/o trusted setup from euclidean rings) 09:52 < nsh> (may not work for elliptic curves if no equivalent of extended euclidean algorithm) 09:53 < nsh> +efficient 09:57 < nsh> ((but there is: http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.140.7944&rep=rep1&type=pdf )) 10:10 < nsh> "Therefore, the Extended Euclidean Algorithm can be used to decide whether an element of R/a is a unit and to compute its inverse if it is a unit." # is probably how you avoid needing trapdoor/TS 10:10 < nsh> - 2.5.1 Quotients of Euclidean Rings in https://user.math.uzh.ch/fontein/diplom-fontein.pdf 10:10 < nsh> (perhaps you can create a bulletproofs-like scheme using this property?) 10:11 < nsh> (or MW) 10:18 < nsh> (perhaps like this "More specifically,our system allows demonstrating the knowledge of a hash chain from the con-sidered secret leaf to the root in a zero-knowledge manner." - https://hal.inria.fr/hal-01314642/document ) 10:19 < nsh> [W]e achieve: The first lattice-based ring signature with logarithmic signature size in the cardinality of the ring. So far, all suggested proposals have linear size in the number of ring members. – A lattice-based group signature with much shorter public key, signature length, and weaker hardness assumptions than all earlier realizations." 10:20 -!- laurentmt [~Thunderbi@185.44.76.121] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:26 -!- Giszmo [~leo@pc-72-54-46-190.cm.vtr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 10:26 -!- laurentmt [~Thunderbi@185.44.76.121] has quit [Quit: laurentmt] 10:29 -!- shesek [~shesek@unaffiliated/shesek] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 10:39 -!- Giszmo [~leo@ip-100-233.219.201.nextelmovil.cl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:57 -!- samm__ is now known as samm_ 11:05 -!- Krellan [~Krellan@2601:640:4000:9258:390e:963f:4db3:d60] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:07 -!- Krellan [~Krellan@2601:640:4000:9258:390e:963f:4db3:d60] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:11 -!- marikos [~textual@adsl-223.79.107.161.tellas.gr] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:20 -!- tin_ 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