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01:51 < maaku> It seems with MW you knwo the outputs that are yours because you generated them, in an ideal sense, but in reality people do things like backup wallets and expect to recover future transactions
01:52 < maaku> so you have to scan every single output. what I'm curious is if there's some other construction that could be made more efficient for this, while still allowing unexpected payments using scripted outputs
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06:13 < andytoshi> maaku: essentially yes, you have a secret blinding key and everything in the txout is encrypted to yourself using that (it's not AES but it could be; it's xoring with the random stream that you used to generate the rangeproof in the first place)
06:14 < andytoshi> and no, i'm not aware of any more efficient construction. with switch commitments you have a "free point" that you can make more directly recognizeable
06:16 < andytoshi> in addition to the encryption, you could grind your rangeproofs or points so that the first byte or two was 0 when hashed alongside some secret.. this would let you eliminate the majority of outputs in 100s of ns each (and this check would be done before the ecdh)
06:17 < andytoshi> so there are certainly hacks like that that make "scan everything" useable in practice
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06:25 < instagibbs> maaku, wasn't talking about MW, guess I missed the additional scrollback
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10:15 < maaku> andytoshi: I was trying to work out your statement "oh, that does not include the ECDH. you'd need to use some symmetric key to actually get that performance."
10:18 < nsh> i guess it was relative to "but we got trial-rewinding down to 3.5 nanoseconds"
10:18 < maaku> so to be clear, for CT you would have to finish the ECDH to get the blinding factor. for MW you generate the blinding factor by whatever means and try it, and that's significantly faster than ECDH?
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10:29 < andytoshi> maaku: yes
10:29 < andytoshi> with old-school rangeproofs it was like 8ms to try the ECDH key, so the tens of microseconds that you need to compute it wasn't really too important (and scanning every output was completely impractical)
10:30 < andytoshi> with bulletproofs, once you have a nonce somehow, you can do a preliminary check in less than 3.5 microseconds, which is practical for every output even in bitcoin (if you're willing to spend an hour or so, e.g during wallet restore)
10:30 < andytoshi> but then "tens of microseconsd to do a ECDH" makes it impractical again
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10:37 < maaku> andytoshi: ok thanks. just wanted to make sure we're on the same page (we are)
10:38 < andytoshi> excellent
10:39 < maaku> "symmetric key" threw me into thinking you were talking about CT-land with senders AES-encrypting nonces, which of course would work but with terrible privacy properties
10:40 < maaku> but you just meant how the nonces are generated inside the MW wallet
10:41 < andytoshi> ah yep
10:41 < andytoshi> i've considered doing AES-encrypted nonces from sender to receiver .. the issue is not so much privacy as it is key management .. you need to somehow share a key between every pair of transactors and there's just no practical way to do this without DH
10:42 < maaku> yup
10:43 < maaku> my musing above, before this tangent, was whether there is some homomorphism that can be exploited to make an index of outputs for block though, to get better than linear scanning time
10:43 < maaku> but at 3.5ns that's not necessary
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10:44 < maaku> actually it would be good for SPV clients though
10:44 < maaku> client-side block filtering for MW wallets
10:45 < andytoshi> 3.5 µs, not ns .. but yeah
10:45 < andytoshi> for individual blocks it's definitely performant enough even for very weak machines
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11:32 < wildermind> does bitcoin core node has the option of blacklisting some other nodes ? is it done manually meaning, using the CLI/list or, programatically meaning that some behavior will lead to blacklisting? Also, what does the node do when it's low on peers? could anyone point me to a resource? I did read ALL the docs regarding the p2p in bitcoin.org
11:35 < belcher_> #bitcoin is a better channel for questions like that wildermind
11:36 < wildermind> belcher_: ok ty
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11:59 < ECH> maaku: So I took the plunge.
11:59 < ECH> I tried to write up an overview of CT after our convo.
11:59 < ECH> Would you be interested in taking a look at it?
12:02 < ECH> Only part I got confused at was the part when you said that the Confidential Transaction Output is "{Pedersen commitment, ecdh nonce, scriptPubKey}"
12:02 < maaku> sure I can take a look at it
12:02 < ECH> I'm not sure what the ecdh nonce refers to.  Is that the blinding key?  Or is that the random number multiplied with the blinding key?
12:02 < maaku> or you can post to this channel and others can review too
12:03 < ECH> lol okay.
12:03 < maaku> it is (blinding factor) * (sender's ephemeral secret) * G
12:04 < ECH> Got it.
12:04 < maaku> er, (nonce) * (sender's ephemeral secret) * G
12:04 < maaku> which multiplied by the receiver's secret blinding key (and hashed) is the blinding factor
12:04 < maaku> sorry. In the CT source we called it "nonce" which is a terrible name.
12:04 < ECH> Yea...
12:05 < ECH> I get it confused with like mining nonce's
12:05 < maaku> it's a partial-ECDH protocol transcript
12:05 < ECH> Okay let me edit it and I'll post it for review.
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12:05 < maaku> especially bad because nonce means "number used once" and it's not even a number.. it's an EC point
12:05 < ECH> lol
12:06 < ECH> okay will post in a few hours after lunch and what not.
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12:39 < ECH> Sorry one last question.  The amount of BTC in the transaction.  Is that hidden in the Pederson commitment or in the ecdh nonce?
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12:52 < maaku> ECH: the Pedersen commitment
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13:08 < ECH> Okay.  Here it is: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1mkmc5Wd8sSPi6ZNSRr-qSTjDKq3jFxoLHiTS0tkqNi0/edit?usp=sharing
13:09 < ECH> I'm still unsure about the ecdh nonce part.  But I feel like I was able to convey the general key concepts.  I didn't go into the nitty gritty math details though.
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--- Log closed Tue Sep 04 00:00:59 2018