--- Log opened Mon Nov 19 00:00:25 2018 00:03 -!- deusexbeer [~deusexbee@095-129-170-090-dynamic-pool-adsl.wbt.ru] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:03 -!- setpill [~setpill@unaffiliated/setpill] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:04 -!- thomasan_ [~thomasand@2605:a601:b021:f00:7c84:b81e:832:a4a] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 00:16 -!- tromp [~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:16 -!- tromp [~tromp@ip-217-103-3-94.ip.prioritytelecom.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:17 -!- Dizzle [~Dizzle@unaffiliated/dizzle] has quit [Quit: Leaving...] 00:24 -!- IGHOR [~quassel@93.178.216.72] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 00:32 -!- phwalkr [~phwalkr@192.32.61.94.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:36 -!- phwalkr [~phwalkr@192.32.61.94.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:42 -!- rh0nj [~rh0nj@136.243.139.96] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:43 -!- rh0nj [~rh0nj@136.243.139.96] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:51 -!- deusexbeer [~deusexbee@095-129-170-090-dynamic-pool-adsl.wbt.ru] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 00:59 -!- PdeClown [~sapperdef@178-169-175-31.pz.ddns.bulsat.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:59 -!- PdeClown [~sapperdef@178-169-175-31.pz.ddns.bulsat.com] has quit [Changing host] 00:59 -!- PdeClown [~sapperdef@unaffiliated/pdeclown] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:15 -!- Guyver2 [AdiIRC@guyver2.xs4all.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:15 -!- phwalkr [~phwalkr@192.32.61.94.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:51 -!- IGHOR [~quassel@93.178.216.72] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:52 -!- go1111111 [go1111111@gateway/vpn/privateinternetaccess/go1111111] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 01:52 -!- Zenton [~user@unaffiliated/vicenteh] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 02:02 -!- spinza [~spin@155.93.246.187] has quit [Quit: Coyote finally caught up with me...] 02:05 -!- spinza [~spin@155.93.246.187] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 02:07 -!- go1111111 [~go1111111@104.156.98.86] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 02:36 -!- PdeClown [~sapperdef@unaffiliated/pdeclown] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 02:44 -!- booyah [~bb@193.25.1.157] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 02:44 -!- ghost43 [~daer@gateway/tor-sasl/daer] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:45 -!- ghost43 [~daer@gateway/tor-sasl/daer] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 02:48 -!- PdeClown [~sapperdef@178-169-175-31.pz.ddns.bulsat.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 02:48 -!- PdeClown [~sapperdef@178-169-175-31.pz.ddns.bulsat.com] has quit [Changing host] 02:48 -!- PdeClown [~sapperdef@unaffiliated/pdeclown] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 03:01 < wallet42> is mediantimepast strictly monotonic for the entire chain? 03:02 < wallet42> sorry, i meant entirely monotonic (not strictly) 03:25 -!- shesek [~shesek@unaffiliated/shesek] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:26 -!- shesek [~shesek@185.3.147.72] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 03:26 -!- shesek [~shesek@185.3.147.72] has quit [Changing host] 03:26 -!- shesek [~shesek@unaffiliated/shesek] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 03:27 -!- shesek [~shesek@unaffiliated/shesek] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:50 -!- phwalkr [~phwalkr@192.32.61.94.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:52 -!- phwalkr [~phwalkr@192.32.61.94.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 03:55 -!- tombusby [~tombusby@gateway/tor-sasl/tombusby] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 03:55 -!- tombusby [~tombusby@gateway/tor-sasl/tombusby] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 03:57 -!- phwalkr [~phwalkr@192.32.61.94.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 04:03 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 04:28 -!- rh0nj [~rh0nj@136.243.139.96] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:29 -!- rh0nj [~rh0nj@136.243.139.96] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 04:31 -!- phwalkr [~phwalkr@194.210.92.22] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 04:35 -!- phwalkr [~phwalkr@194.210.92.22] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 04:47 -!- JackH [~laptop@62.232.170.181] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 04:54 -!- cjd [~user@2a01:e0a:149:fcb0:f8c2:e9ff:fe25:a09f] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 04:59 -!- spinza [~spin@155.93.246.187] has quit [Quit: Coyote finally caught up with me...] 05:07 -!- spinza [~spin@155.93.246.187] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 05:15 -!- phwalkr [~phwalkr@194.210.88.169] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 06:03 -!- aj [aj@cerulean.erisian.com.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 06:05 -!- michaelfolkson [~textual@host86-132-64-104.range86-132.btcentralplus.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 06:08 < tromp> yes 06:10 -!- ruby32 [~ruby32@2604:2000:e882:c800:c92f:409a:1918:6e83] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 06:12 < tromp> if T is median of set S of 11 timestamps, and form S' by adding a time >= T, and removing any other time, then median S' is till >= T 06:16 -!- aj [~aj@cerulean.erisian.com.au] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 06:46 -!- michaelfolkson 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[~thomasand@2605:a601:b021:f00:7c84:b81e:832:a4a] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:25 < Guest86812> Working on FPGA implementation of signature verification on secp256k1; is there earlier work on this? 10:32 -!- michaelfolkson [~textual@85.211.226.228] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:32 < nsh> not really, afaik 10:38 < Jbaczuk> Guest86812: nice, I've always thought that would be cool to have for a full node 10:39 < Guest86812> Intent is to help speed up low-power nodes; need to avoid division, so going to use Jacobian instead of affine 10:40 < Guest86812> Not sure if there will be other unexpected complications in making the design small enough 10:41 < gmaxwell> Guest86812: If you're talking about using projective coordinates or not, it sounds like you're unaware of the state of the art in efficient processing... 10:42 < gmaxwell> Guest86812: you should probably review libsecp256k1. A simple starting project would be something like implementing efficient field multiplication. 10:43 < sipa> libsecp256k1 has a number of constant-time algorithms (for signing, keygen, ecdh) and variable-time ones (for verification and others) 10:43 < sipa> the constant-time ones can probably be adapted more easily to FPGAs 10:44 < sipa> https://github.com/bitcoin-core/secp256k1/ 10:44 -!- phwalkr [~phwalkr@194.210.88.169] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:47 -!- phwalkr [~phwalkr@194.210.88.169] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:47 -!- Zenton [~user@unaffiliated/vicenteh] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:51 -!- phwalkr [~phwalkr@194.210.88.169] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 10:51 -!- michaelfolkson [~textual@85.211.226.228] has quit [Quit: Sleep mode] 10:57 < Guest86812> gmaxwell - as in using wNAF? I've read through a bit of libsecp but not sure what should change when implementing in HW 10:59 -!- thomasan_ [~thomasand@2605:a601:b021:f00:7c84:b81e:832:a4a] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:04 -!- thomasan_ [~thomasand@2605:a601:b021:f00:7c84:b81e:832:a4a] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 11:04 < sipa> Guest86812: naive wNAF will be hard in hardware, as it uses windows in variable positions based on the scalar 11:04 < sipa> though for ECDH there is a special fixed-window wNaF in libsecp, which should be much more easy to adapt 11:08 < nsh> didn't someone ask about a hw impl of the windowing and sensible defaults a couple of weeks ago in #secp256k1? 11:08 < nsh> ah yeah ddustin 11:11 -!- Guest86812 [12287005@gateway/web/freenode/ip.18.40.112.5] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 11:17 -!- drexl [~drexl@cpc130676-camd16-2-0-cust445.know.cable.virginm.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:17 -!- drexl_ [~drexl@cpc130676-camd16-2-0-cust445.know.cable.virginm.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:31 < gmaxwell> Guest86812: there are many other optimizations than WNAF. 11:33 -!- thomasan_ [~thomasand@2605:a601:b021:f00:7c84:b81e:832:a4a] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:38 -!- thomasan_ [~thomasand@2605:a601:b021:f00:7c84:b81e:832:a4a] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 11:55 -!- Chris_Stewart_5 [~chris@unaffiliated/chris-stewart-5/x-3612383] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:55 -!- arubi_ [~ese168@gateway/tor-sasl/ese168] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:57 -!- arubi [~ese168@gateway/tor-sasl/ese168] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 11:57 -!- michaelfolkson [~textual@85.211.226.228] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:01 -!- phwalkr [~phwalkr@194.210.88.20] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:01 -!- phwalkr [~phwalkr@194.210.88.20] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:01 -!- phwalkr [~phwalkr@194.210.88.20] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:05 -!- enemabandit [~enemaband@16.77.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Quit: Lost terminal] 12:06 -!- michaelfolkson [~textual@85.211.226.228] has quit [Quit: Sleep mode] 12:06 -!- thomasan_ [~thomasand@2605:a601:b021:f00:7c84:b81e:832:a4a] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:08 -!- michaelsdunn1 [~michaelsd@unaffiliated/michaelsdunn1] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:10 -!- michaelsdunn1 [~michaelsd@38.126.31.226] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:10 -!- michaelsdunn1 [~michaelsd@38.126.31.226] has quit [Changing host] 12:10 -!- michaelsdunn1 [~michaelsd@unaffiliated/michaelsdunn1] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:11 -!- thomasan_ [~thomasand@2605:a601:b021:f00:7c84:b81e:832:a4a] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 12:24 < cjd> Does anybody know if there's been any study on the efficacy of counting forks as part of "total work" on top of a block, rather than just taking tallest chain (sum of targets) 12:24 < cjd> ? 12:24 -!- enemabandit [~enemaband@16.77.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:27 -!- michaelfolkson [~textual@85.211.226.228] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:29 < sipa> cjd: that sounds like ghost/spectre/phantom protocols 12:30 < sipa> (at least one of those, i don't remember which is which) 12:30 -!- michaelfolkson [~textual@85.211.226.228] has quit [Client Quit] 12:30 < cjd> Looking now... I'm not talking about DAGs specifically, just about counting forks toward bestWork 12:31 < gmaxwell> they make selfish mining much worse. 12:31 < sarang> Depends. At least one of them using connectivity to penalize selfish mining 12:31 -!- michaelfolkson [~textual@85.211.226.228] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:31 -!- michaelfolkson [~textual@85.211.226.228] has quit [Client Quit] 12:31 < sarang> (don't remember which of them) 12:32 < gmaxwell> IIRC ethereum used to weigh them and had to abandon it because of selfish mining. 12:33 < gmaxwell> the phantom one does some kind of absurd "must solve a NP-hard problem to compute POW" to try to address it. 12:33 < cjd> Oh, they were making partial payouts to the winners of fork blocks, right ? 12:33 < gmaxwell> cjd: they still do. but they don't use them to adjust chain weight anymore. 12:36 < cjd> Hmm, so if you mine a fork of a fork, you keep it quiet for a while and let the other side of the fork seem to be winning and then reveal it ? 12:37 * cjd looking at The Impact of Uncle Rewards on Selfish Mining in Ethereum 12:38 -!- phwalkr [~phwalkr@194.210.88.20] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:39 < cjd> ahh yup, it's GHOST protocol, thanks 12:46 -!- phwalkr [~phwalkr@194.210.88.20] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:50 -!- phwalkr_ [~phwalkr@194.210.88.20] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:51 -!- phwalkr [~phwalkr@194.210.88.20] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 12:51 -!- phwalkr_ [~phwalkr@194.210.88.20] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:51 -!- phwalkr [~phwalkr@194.210.88.20] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:55 -!- phwalkr [~phwalkr@194.210.88.20] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:55 -!- phwalkr [~phwalkr@194.210.88.20] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:59 -!- phwalkr [~phwalkr@194.210.88.20] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:59 -!- rh0nj [~rh0nj@136.243.139.96] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:00 -!- phwalkr [~phwalkr@194.210.88.20] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:00 -!- phwalkr [~phwalkr@194.210.88.20] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:00 -!- phwalkr [~phwalkr@194.210.88.20] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:01 < cjd> oh nice "On Trees, Chains and Fast Transactions in the Blockchain" claims to have developed some proofs for GHOST and they're pretty positive about it 13:01 < cjd> I guess you just can't go rewarding people for forking the chain (who knew) 13:02 -!- rh0nj [~rh0nj@136.243.139.96] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:02 -!- booyah [~bb@193.25.1.157] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:03 -!- booyah [~bb@193.25.1.157] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:07 -!- phwalkr [~phwalkr@194.210.88.20] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:09 -!- thomasan_ [~thomasand@2605:a601:b021:f00:7c84:b81e:832:a4a] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:14 -!- thomasan_ [~thomasand@2605:a601:b021:f00:7c84:b81e:832:a4a] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 13:17 -!- michaelsdunn1 [~michaelsd@unaffiliated/michaelsdunn1] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:19 -!- michaelsdunn1 [~michaelsd@unaffiliated/michaelsdunn1] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:25 < cjd> This is ... interesting https://ethereum.stackexchange.com/questions/13378/what-is-the-exact-longest-chain-rule-implemented-in-the-ethereum-homestead-p/13750#13750 13:32 -!- dougsland [~douglas@c-24-34-137-83.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 13:33 < cjd> 10 minutes looking at the code and I can't convince myself that the author is wrong... It would appear that Ethereum doesn't actually implement GHOST at all, it just rewards forks o_O 13:35 < sipa> cjd: i believe it indeed doesn't 13:35 < sipa> also, i think more recent work improves upon ghost (spectre or phantom) 13:36 < cjd> the dag stuff is really cool, but it's a bit over my head :) 13:40 < cjd> Actually Ethereum is slightly worse than bitcoin because it's not using stated target but rather the hash 13:40 < cjd> (asside from the little part about incentivising forks) 13:43 -!- thomasan_ [~thomasand@2605:a601:b021:f00:7c84:b81e:832:a4a] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:46 < gmaxwell> cjd: I think I said before that ethereum dropped weighing the fork blocks. 13:47 -!- thomasan_ [~thomasand@2605:a601:b021:f00:7c84:b81e:832:a4a] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 13:48 -!- Zenton [~user@unaffiliated/vicenteh] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:50 < cjd> ahh, you're right, I went back to some older commits and indeed they're adding uncles 14:07 -!- enemabandit 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ZZZzzz…] 18:19 -!- michaelsdunn1 [~michaelsd@unaffiliated/michaelsdunn1] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 18:23 -!- Chris_Stewart_5 [~chris@unaffiliated/chris-stewart-5/x-3612383] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 18:45 -!- michaelsdunn1 [~michaelsd@unaffiliated/michaelsdunn1] has quit [Quit: My MacBook Air has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…] 19:07 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has quit [] 19:20 -!- Chris_Stewart_5 [~chris@unaffiliated/chris-stewart-5/x-3612383] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 19:21 -!- cjd [~user@2a01:e0a:149:fcb0:f8c2:e9ff:fe25:a09f] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:22 -!- cjd [~user@2a01:e0a:149:fcb0:f8c2:e9ff:fe25:a09f] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 19:27 -!- Belkaar_ [~Belkaar@xdsl-87-78-239-241.nc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:27 -!- Belkaar [~Belkaar@xdsl-87-78-144-29.nc.de] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 19:27 -!- Belkaar [~Belkaar@xdsl-87-78-144-29.nc.de] has quit [Changing host] 19:27 -!- Belkaar [~Belkaar@unaffiliated/belkaar] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 19:31 -!- rh0nj [~rh0nj@136.243.139.96] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:32 -!- rh0nj [~rh0nj@136.243.139.96] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 19:38 -!- go1111111 [~go1111111@104.156.98.86] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 19:47 -!- mn3monic [jsz@unaffiliated/mn3monic] has quit [Excess Flood] 19:47 -!- mn3monic [jsz@unaffiliated/mn3monic] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 19:51 -!- go1111111 [go1111111@gateway/vpn/privateinternetaccess/go1111111] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 19:58 -!- Chris_Stewart_5 [~chris@unaffiliated/chris-stewart-5/x-3612383] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 20:06 -!- Chris_Stewart_5 [~chris@unaffiliated/chris-stewart-5/x-3612383] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:28 -!- Jmabsd [~jmabsd@2404:c800:970f:b898:61fb:7d09:8f4b:8b15] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 20:28 < Jmabsd> a "DER encoded signature with sighash byte for contract endorsement" can be as small as 9 bytes?? 20:28 < Jmabsd> i thought normally they're 72 or 73B. (73 is the max.) 20:28 -!- cjd [~user@2a01:e0a:149:fcb0:f8c2:e9ff:fe25:a09f] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 20:28 -!- cjd [~user@2a01:e0a:149:fcb0:f8c2:e9ff:fe25:a09f] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 20:29 < sipa> Jmabsd: DER is variable length 20:29 < sipa> if the r and s value in the signature are small enough, the encoding becomes shorter 20:29 < Jmabsd> sipa: right. but like, in what situation would you get a <72B endorsement? 20:29 < Jmabsd> when could they become, how is this a function of privkey (or pubkey for that sake)? 20:29 < sipa> < sipa> if the r and s value in the signature are small enough 20:30 < sipa> obviously this can't depend on the private key 20:30 < sipa> otherwise the signature would leak information 20:45 < Jmabsd> sipa: ahh, the r/s value is the signature's "nonce" input/argument? 20:45 < Jmabsd> are there any notable amounts of <72B signatures on the chain? 20:49 < sipa> Jmabsd: no, the nonce is secret 20:50 < Jmabsd> sipa: in normal SECP256K1 signing the r/s value comes from what 20:50 < Jmabsd> didn't study its workings. 20:57 < sipa> Jmabsd: then all you need to know is that randomly the signature will be occasionally shorter 20:57 < sipa> Jmabsd: and pathologically constructed ones can be as small as 9 bytes 21:11 -!- Jmabsd [~jmabsd@2404:c800:970f:b898:61fb:7d09:8f4b:8b15] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 21:23 -!- spinza [~spin@155.93.246.187] has quit [Quit: Coyote finally caught up with me...] 21:36 -!- spinza [~spin@155.93.246.187] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 22:06 -!- thomasan_ [~thomasand@2605:a601:b021:f00:7c84:b81e:832:a4a] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 22:11 -!- thomasan_ [~thomasand@2605:a601:b021:f00:7c84:b81e:832:a4a] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 22:49 -!- rusty [~rusty@pdpc/supporter/bronze/rusty] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 23:00 -!- thomasan_ [~thomasand@2605:a601:b021:f00:7c84:b81e:832:a4a] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 23:31 -!- go1111111 [go1111111@gateway/vpn/privateinternetaccess/go1111111] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:36 -!- _whitelogger [~whitelogg@uruz.whitequark.org] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:37 -!- nuncanada [~dude@187.65.64.52] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 23:37 -!- _whitelogger [~whitelogg@uruz.whitequark.org] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 23:43 -!- gaugetheory [b9e67dc4@gateway/web/freenode/ip.185.230.125.196] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 23:47 -!- go1111111 [~go1111111@104.156.98.86] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 23:57 -!- booyah [~bb@193.25.1.157] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] --- Log closed Tue Nov 20 00:00:26 2018