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02:02 < Continue> I got this idea stuck i my head....wouldnt it be an idea to use tape as a storage medium for the chain? (Forget about the cost of the read/write module for a second). The idea came not so much because of a storage cost consideration, but the fact that both the chain and tape need to be read in a serialized manner
02:03 < gmaxwell> yes, tape is fine but using specialized hardware for nodes isn't super decenteralization friendly.
02:03 < gmaxwell> tape is also falling out of use generally (too bad, I'm fond of it)
02:04 < Continue> Its just that, with the high density levels we have today, i recon you only need a small piece of it
02:04 < Continue> hence hardly need to move the thing at all XD
02:06 < Continue> But fine, you triggered my trapcard so to speak...other question i had (had brief discussion about this with wladimir and Luke on twitter a while back). To what extend can bitcoinsoftware, practicly, written in an HDL
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02:07 < Continue> I dream of plug n play PCI fpga modules
02:08 < gmaxwell> a lot of 'accelerator' usage is hard to make work well, becuase of latencies to talk to the accelerator.
02:09 < gmaxwell> like, imagine you make a FPGA that can take a transaction and return true or false on validating it.  If you interface to it by sending it the txn then waiting for the result.. even if the FPGA is fast this might be slower than just validating it on the cpu.
02:09 < gmaxwell> I think perhaps fpga things with bitcoin are most interesting if you're trying to run a battery or solar powered node and need the minimum power usage possible or something like that.
02:10 < Continue> but SOCs are becomming more of a thing these days
02:10 < Continue> Yeah power reduction would be the main point i gues. Next to fast chain indexation...but thats an storage bottleneck i gues?
02:11 < gmaxwell> well on an little arm device, sync ends up cpu limited.
02:12 < cjd> You might consider a chip which has some extra circuitry (extra asm instruction) for doing sha256 and ecdsa
02:12 < Continue> I think both altera and xilinx are putting small boards on the market with complete SOC.....though i gues you lose universality with those
02:12 < gmaxwell> Continue: yes, there are chips like zynq... which is a dual core arm cpu plus a fpga.
02:13 < gmaxwell> cjd: ironically libsecp256k1 on an arm cpu is faster than any of these embedded generic 'ecdsa' accelerators I've encountered.
02:13 < gmaxwell> but sha256 instructions are pretty useful
02:13 < cjd> very cool, NEON is pretty well done AFAICT
02:14 < gmaxwell> I'm generally a fan of neon, but it also kind of feels increasingly outdated... intel stuff has not been standing still, and while it'll always be ugly, its become quite capable.
02:16 < cjd> In the end, ARM has to beat amd64 because it's just quicker to decode the instruction set and more players out there... then in the end RISC-V has to beat ARM because there's the opportunity for even more players in the space, but it's going to be a very long end
02:17 < gmaxwell> the history of cpus is full of people saying "X should be faster than Y" and being proven really really wrong. :P
02:17 < Continue> things seem to be moving along in RISC-V well though
02:17 < gmaxwell> RISC-V lacks a CLZ instruction. :( woe be it to all entropy coders and DSP code. :P
02:18 < cjd> haha..  I'm not making predictions about performance, more about economics.. so I guess out of the frying pan and into the fire
02:19 < gmaxwell> cjd: hard to say, arm has historically been relatively open... yes you had to pay a license fee, but I understand that the fees were usually fairly modest compared to the fab costs of modern process.
02:19 < Continue> since i got your attention, might as well pas allong 2 notions i have. One is very old, that occured to me early on when i encoutered Bitcoin and grasped the basics, the other was only recent.
02:20 < gmaxwell> so lots of parties licensed arm and extended it in varrious ways, and thats why there is such a mess of arm extensions out there.
02:20 < gmaxwell> and at least part of the interest in risc-v is that arm has started cutting down on the extentions because they realized it was dilluting the arch and promoting incompatiblity that hurt them in the market.
02:21 < cjd> Hmm
02:21 < gmaxwell> (Obviously not why the 'open world' cares about risc-v but it's unclear how commercially relevant that audience is, I say as part of it..)
02:22 < cjd> I suppose what they ought to be doing to acting as a standards body and trying to herd extension developer cats into making extensions which generally talk the same language
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02:23 < gmaxwell> even neon is a little weird because of the history, ... that it effectively has its own pipeline and has visible latency when interacting with the cpu instruction stream, is a product of neon being an optional extension.
02:23 < Continue> love your feebdback on it. First the old one. ´the application of Bitcoin(type systems) is the ´STATEification´of the internet. Im not refering to state in a technical/mathmetical sense of it being a statemachine, but in a political manner. Basic defintion of State being: Territory, with an authority with controll of force, enforcing rule of law. In Bitoin terms it would be ´ A network(territory) with an authority(in Bitco
02:23 < Continue> ins case decentralized mining/nodes) enforcing rule of code´
02:24 < gmaxwell> I think a lot of the intutions of Territory don't really apply, since you can be 'in bitcoin' while also being in USD-land.
02:25 < gmaxwell> while one can only be in a single place at a time, normally, and the cost of moving from place to place is very high, etc. the amount of coupling you have with your neighbors is high... while we can both use bitcoin while I am pretending you don't exist pretty successfully.
02:25 < Continue> they run parralel, but thats only an attribute of cyberspace
02:29 < Continue> its an analogy, any difference in properties of domains is implied...notice i use ´network´, not territory
02:31 < Continue> The point is rather the followup. That given the goal of Bitcoin is to be outside of anyones particular controll, id argue it tries to establish (an artificial) natural law in the digital domain
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02:31 < cjd> I think it's fair to consider blockchain technologies as "soverign" in a governmental sense, because they don't directly answer to the court system
02:31 < Continue> it is the court system
02:32 < Continue> of its own network
02:32 < gmaxwell> you might like book "Code and Other Laws of Cyberspace",  (I thought it was okay, but mostly ideas that were well known to me when it came out)
02:32 < Continue> Thnx il take a look
02:32 < Continue> Second notion, another analogy
02:33 < Continue> Would it be at al fair to compare Bitcoin to a computer, with Script being the chip-instructionset, transactions being the instructions and blcoks being the clockcycles?
02:34 < gmaxwell> that is one model, but I don't think it gives the right intutions.
02:34 < gmaxwell> You're really not asking bitcoin to compute anything for you. You already did the computing and know the answer.
02:34 < gmaxwell> In bitcoin you do the computing, and bitcoin keeps records of it, but it checks and only keeps correct records.
02:35 < Continue> Well, id argue the application is different
02:35 < Continue> being that its ´computing´ in an untrusted environment on a human scale
02:35 < gmaxwell> The only reason script gets executed by bitcoin nodes is simply because redoing the work is the simplest way to verify a computation.
02:36 < gmaxwell> But it's not actually necessary for it to work that way, only simplest.
02:37 < gmaxwell> In fact, with bitcoin today it's possible in some cases to do your complex computing completely externally to avoid the public network having to directly check your work: https://bitcoincore.org/en/2016/02/26/zero-knowledge-contingent-payments-announcement/
02:37 < Continue> But what if i construct a sequence of transactions. Where i have conditional partially signed txns, where one can only be spend if the previous has been put into a block
02:39 < Continue> right, more optimally you only publizise the conclusion
02:45 < Continue> what would be a model you prefer?
02:46 < sipa> Continue: that sounds like eltoo
02:46 < Continue> Sorta, yeah, same principle
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02:48 < Continue> But im thinking bigger. Lets say a venture. You have a bunch of starting capital. You write up a large complex contract between parties that descibes the flow of funds at each stage of the venture. Once all paries agree on the contract, they sign the innitial tx, kicking off the ´program´
02:50 < Continue> Bitcoin wont execute the venture for you ofcourse, but it gives parties involved a certain level of transparentie and certainty that the money is there, and that on of the valid ´paths´ that money can take is towards them
02:51 < Continue> other valid paths may be timelock spending conditions in case there is a dispute, so that a notary, or any other trusted 3rd party that was appointed/descibed in the contract in advance and seize the funds and arbirtate
02:52 < Continue> But once the ´program´ starts, there are only so many predescribed ways the money can be spend in each iteration
02:53 < Continue> Gonna take some serious re-schooling of lawyers though haha
02:55 < Continue> a contractor might even take proof the ´promise´ of getting payed to a supplier of raw material, and use it as a bassis to create his own spinn-off contract with that suppplyer
02:59 < Continue> That promise is rather solid, because the BTC can only be spend in pre-defined valid ways, to predefined adresses, containing predefined conditions themselves etc.
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08:23 < treyzania> Has anyone worked on building a schnorr testnet yet?
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09:11 < nickler> treyzania: there isn't even consensus yet about what a schnorr softfork would consist of (see sighash discussion on the mailing list for example)
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21:01 < treyzania> nickler: I've read it, but at some point someone has to pull the trigger and start practical experimentation with it
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--- Log closed Thu Nov 29 00:00:35 2018