--- Log opened Wed Dec 12 00:00:05 2018
--- Day changed Wed Dec 12 2018
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16:31 < rusty> jl2012: I was wrong about eltoo, retraction coming...
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16:33 < aj> rusty: ?
16:33 < rusty> aj: I said on-list that eltoo can commit to the script (ie; doesn't need OP_MASK), it can't.
16:34 < aj> rusty: ah. yup
16:38 < rusty> OK, I'm pretty sure OP_MASK is complexity we don't want.  Fight! :)
16:41 < aj> rusty: fwiw, OP_MASK moves me from kinda-uncomfortable with NOINPUT to completely okay with it. Also, smells like elderberries in here...
16:41 < rusty> aj: I think it's window dressing.
16:42 < rusty> It makes people feel better, without actually solving a problem.
16:43 < aj> rusty: i'm not sure how to turn this into a technical debate. non-technically: "Removing it makes people feel worse, without actually solving a problem" ?
16:44 < aj> rusty: the "problem" that it solves is having the signature commit to as much about the transaction as is actually possible, which seems like it should always be good practice
16:44 < rusty> aj: I think it's more "this adds complexity, thus requires justification"?  When I actually analyze what it gains us (from an Eltoo perspective), the answer is "very little".
16:45 < sipa> rusty: i like aj's perspective; you're arguing for removing a protection, which needs justification
16:45 < sipa> my view is that we shouldn't remove more protection than needed
16:45 < rusty> From an Eltoo perspective: If you don't reuse pubkeys there is no problem.  If you do, OPMASK doesn't save you.
16:46 < sipa> sure, but i'm not assuming that eltoo will be the only thing using NOINPUT
16:46 < rusty> So, in the one concrete case we have, it provides no benefit.  I am reluctant to endorse complexity unless such benefit can be pointed out.
16:47 < sipa> and you are reusing pubkeys in eltoo across scripts - you've just reasoned enough to know that this is safe
16:47 < sipa> with masking, you don't need that reasoning
16:47 < sipa> (and in your case, it is pretty trivial)
16:47 < rusty> sipa: No, I showed with pubkey reuse it is *not safe* with masking.
16:48 < sipa> rusty: but eltoo is safe?
16:48 < rusty> sipa: if we reuse pubkeys across multiple channels, it is not.
16:48 < sipa> rusty: yes, that's reasoning
16:48 < sipa> but you are still reusing pubkeys
16:48 < sipa> just not across channels
16:49 < aj> rusty: with MASK, you can reuse the same key in a NOINPUT eltoo channel in some other non-eltoo system fairly safely; because the signature commits to the eltoo structure, so things not using that structure are immediately saved and don't have to be analysed
16:49 < gmaxwell> to make noinput safe by construction, what you'd actually want use a user provided cryptographically large nonce, that is not allowed to be reused.
16:49 < gmaxwell> But we don't want to track an ever growing used nonce list in consensus.
16:50 < rusty> aj: yeah, you're protected against the case where a normal tx and an eltoo channel have matching amounts and keys.  That's all it does.
16:50 < aj> rusty: not just a "normal" tx, but any other complicated layer 2 smart contracty system as well
16:51 < rusty> sipa: I'm trying to think of a case with NOINPUT where this wouldn't be true though.  NOINPUT implies you don't have control of they keys (otherwise you could just re-sign).
16:52 < rusty> aj: Meh, nonexistent software which your lightning implementation shares private keys with?  I'm trying to keep the "I accidentally my UTXOs!" scenarios somewhat realistic, and I think that's getting out of bounds.
16:53 < rusty> sipa: *and* you want to rebind, implying that you are reusing at least some keys.
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16:56 < aj> rusty: you seem oddly vehement about this? OP_MASK seems fairly straightforward to me (jl2012 has a spec and i think draft implementation, which seem easy) -- is there something that will make it hard to use in lightning/eltoo somehow?
16:58 < rusty> aj: No, it's a significant change: I'd have to actually parse the scripts at signing time.  At the moment (no code separator usage) I don't have to.
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16:59 < rusty> aj: I can hack it in for the special case, of course.
17:01 < aj> rusty: for lightning, with fixed scripts structures, you could just generate two scripts (the actual script and the masked variant) pretty easily afaics
17:02 < rusty> aj: yep, as I said hack it in as a massive layering violation, sure.
17:02 < rusty> The addition of complexity is eternal, so I would like to see some concrete problem we're solving.  I haven't seen it.
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17:05 < rusty> In particular, it doesn't close what seems to me the most likely key reuse scenario: the same program reusing keys doing the same stuff.
17:07 < rusty> (interestingly, committing to the input amount does much more for us here).
17:11 < aj> rusty: if you wanted to allow key reuse across different eltoo channels, with OP_MASK that's possible: make the script be "<chid> OP_DROP MASK <state+1> CLTV <A+B> CHECKSIG" and your signature commits to the particular channel.
17:11 < aj> rusty: (or, same if you don't want to allow it, but want defense in depth in case you accidently do it anyway)
17:14 < rusty> aj: randomizing channel amounts a little avoids spamming the chain though...
17:15 < gmaxwell> getting security by randomizing channel amounts feels like massive overconfidence in anyone's ability to implement that correctly/consistently.
17:15 < aj> rusty: for taproot eltoo, you still don't need to parse the script afaics. the taproot branch is just "MASK <s+1> CLTV DROP <A+B> CHECKSIG" so your first six bytes are "0x55 0x04 <s+1>" and should get replaced with "0x55 0x65"
17:16 < aj> rusty: (the other branch, which has the CSV can be a scriptless-script with just a direct signature and nSequence set)
17:16 < rusty> gmaxwell: no, it'd be a belt-and-suspenders thing.  You wouldn't rely on it.
17:27 < sipa> rusty: i wonder if you're overestimating how hard the masking operation is; it's just iterating through the opcodes and skipping the pushed bytes - you don't even need to know about what opcodes exist etc
17:32 < rusty> sipa: I'm implementing it now, let's see....
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18:15 < rusty> https://github.com/rustyrussell/lightning/commit/6d1eaca795a4b223dc1b5f8209fceb95a195f657 That's 80 lines of core code.  Not terrible, but not great.  This is the first time the codebase has ever had to parse a script beyond trivial "is this p2sh?" stuff, so it probably contains bugs.
18:16 < rusty> (Completely untested, ofc)
18:19 < rusty> Compare with 280 lines total for the current signing code, including segwit, legacy and segwith-with-sighash-single|anyonecanpay support.  I think my point stands.
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20:07 < gmaxwell> rusty: for eltoo,  how would a splice into an existing channel work?   The spk the the funds coming in for the splice, would that be paid to a spk that is eventually going to get no-input signed for?
20:07 < rusty> gmaxwell: like all splices, you maintain both pre- and post- splice until after some agreed depth.
20:08 < gmaxwell> I guess what I'm trying to determine is this, would a splice result in a non-lightning participant paying to an address where it would be unsafe to pay twice?
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20:13 < rusty> gmaxwell: Well, we don't allow randoms to splice in; that was discussed, but was problematic (basically, splices can fail, and then what happens?).
20:14 < gmaxwell> okay so a splice in would always be coming from the user's own lightning wallet?
20:17 < rusty> gmaxwell: thinking... yes, the splice is always a mutual construction between the two sides, where each offers UTXOs & outputs, then trades signatures on new commitment tx, then finally full witnesses for its inputs.
20:18 < roasbeef> someone could also hypothetically provide an input coin join style
20:19 < rusty> roasbeef: yeah, I was thinking about that.  But it's still the case that it's a normal tx, no sighash_single anywhere.  Which I *think* makes it OK.
20:19 < rusty> s/single/noinput/
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20:23 < roasbeef> yeh, the splicing tx itself would prob be sighash_all, only all its descendants using fancy stuff (in the normal case)
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