--- Log opened Tue Apr 02 00:00:33 2019 00:18 -!- ghost43 [~daer@gateway/tor-sasl/daer] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 00:22 -!- ghost43 [~daer@gateway/tor-sasl/daer] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:59 -!- Krellan [~Krellan@2601:640:4000:a876:28ca:4827:bc13:8e2e] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:02 -!- setpill [~setpill@unaffiliated/setpill] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:03 -!- Krellan [~Krellan@2601:640:4000:a876:28ca:4827:bc13:8e2e] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 01:34 -!- guido_ [~guido@185.137.204.140] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:55 -!- Guyver2 [AdiIRC@guyver2.xs4all.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:58 -!- dionyziz [~dionyziz@li1388-195.members.linode.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 02:00 < dionyziz> Why does HMACing the public key K give a public key K' which corresponds to a private key k' which is the HMAC of the private key k for (k, K) from secp256k1? Specifically, why do non-hardened keys obey the relation N(CKDpriv((kpar, cpar), i)) = CKDpub(N(kpar, cpar), i) as documented in BIP0032? 02:01 < dionyziz> Reference: https://github.com/bitcoin/bips/blob/master/bip-0032.mediawiki#private-parent-key--public-child-key 02:15 -!- TheoStorm [~TheoStorm@host-g4sn8hj.cbn1.zeelandnet.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 02:18 -!- TheoStorm [~TheoStorm@host-g4sn8hj.cbn1.zeelandnet.nl] has quit [Client Quit] 02:18 -!- TheoStorm [~TheoStorm@host-g4sn8hj.cbn1.zeelandnet.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 03:02 -!- spinza [~spin@155.93.246.187] has quit [Quit: Coyote finally caught up with me...] 03:19 -!- spinza [~spin@155.93.246.187] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 03:59 -!- Chris_Stewart_5 [~chris@unaffiliated/chris-stewart-5/x-3612383] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 04:30 < waxwing> dionyziz, child private key is a tweak of parent private key using half of the HMAC output, interpreted as a 256 bit int; for non-hardened that HMAC is only dependent on public information. 04:31 < waxwing> so if you have like x_child = I_L + x_par then clearly it carries over that pubkey_child = I_L G + pubkey_parent 04:36 -!- Aaronvan_ is now known as AaronvanW 04:38 -!- elichai2 [uid212594@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-oslswfglxvkhcjen] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 04:43 -!- Chris_Stewart_5 [~chris@unaffiliated/chris-stewart-5/x-3612383] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 05:06 -!- spinza [~spin@155.93.246.187] has quit [Quit: Coyote finally caught up with me...] 05:09 < musalbas> yes i think it's possible to reduce the point of the chain to ordering messages and publication (but i'd say it's actually "message completeness" - knowing that you have the complete set of messages that need to be ordered) 05:09 -!- Chris_Stewart_5 [~chris@unaffiliated/chris-stewart-5/x-3612383] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 05:10 < musalbas> the consensus set that orders messages doesn't need to verify the validity of the messages, you can do all that client-side if you wanted to in theory. e.g. you can all double-spending on chain but have a client-side rule that says double-spends don't impact the state 05:10 < musalbas> it's questionable how useful that would be, but I think if you figure out a correct incentive structure to prevent spam, it could be interesting. i'm experimenting with that here: https://github.com/musalbas/lazyledger-prototype 05:12 < musalbas> (particularly, if you use 2D erasure code + sampling-based data availability and reduce block validity to data availability, you can have 'full nodes' that need to download less than O(block_size) data to fully validate blocks) 05:12 < nsh> some validation is always required, even if it's just a checking a hash commitment :) 05:12 -!- spinza [~spin@155.93.246.187] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 05:13 < musalbas> " e.g. you can all double-spending on chain" -> that should say " e.g. you can allow double-spending on chain" 05:16 < musalbas> nsh: well if the only block validity rule is that all the data in that block is available because all data is allowed including double spending, you just need to check that the messages are available 05:16 < musalbas> (all the data in that block is available = proof-of-publication) 05:19 < nsh> there's no concept of even single spending unless keys are validated :) 05:19 < nsh> or authorisation by some other proxy 05:20 < nsh> so i don't know. sounds like usenet but i should try and figure out what you mean a bit more precisely 05:20 < musalbas> I have paper draft that I can send you, it might make more sense 05:20 < nsh> what is the test of validity for a message? 05:20 < nsh> kk 05:21 < musalbas> kind of hard to explain tbh because it needs a fundemental detachment of what people even mean by a full node and a client :) 05:21 < nsh> sounds good :) 05:22 < musalbas> sent it to your gmail 05:22 < nsh> ty 05:23 -!- khs9ne [~xxwa@host22-236-dynamic.104-80-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 05:23 < musalbas> the key idea is that the blockchain can have multiple "applications" (e.g. smart contracts) that can be in parallel with each other 05:24 < musalbas> and you're only using the blockchain as a verifiable log to order messages... kind of like Trillian or certificate transparency 05:24 < musalbas> then clients of that verifiable log can download the messages that are specifically related to their applications, and execute them according to their own internal state machine for that application 05:25 < musalbas> the people that are publishing the new block headers for the log do not have to actually care about what messages are being included in the log... their job is just to add stuff to the log 05:25 * nsh nods - still seems you need to some a reduced byzantine problem to consensuate the ordering, which would require PoW afaict 05:25 < nsh> to *solve 05:26 < nsh> (or trusted nodes) 05:26 < nsh> (or e.g. Paxos etc. 05:26 < nsh> ) 05:26 < musalbas> yeah you can use whatever sybil-resistance mechanism / consenus protocol you like, including PoW + longest chain rule 05:26 < nsh> ok 05:38 < waxwing> the log has to be expensive to update (in a identity-less system, so doesn't apply to e.g. google CT). i guess 'you have to be identified' counts as expensive, but in a kind of broken way. 05:38 < waxwing> PKI is kinda broken, but not broken enough that we don't use it because we have nothing less broken for that use-case. i guess. 05:39 * nsh nods 05:44 < musalbas> bitcoin is a log that is expensive to update :) 05:45 < musalbas> i'm always been very critical of CT 05:45 < musalbas> they should've pegged treeheads onto something like Bitcoin 05:46 < musalbas> instead, you have a situation where chrome's inclusion policy requires all certs to be logged in at least google's log server 05:46 < musalbas> so google can retroactively censor any website from using SSL in chromium 05:46 < musalbas> because you can't allow any arbitrary log servers because it wouldn't be sybil resistant 05:47 < nsh> shame cjd isn't here atm 05:47 < nsh> a lot of these problems are encountered when making DHT-based overlay networks 05:48 < waxwing> musalbas, maybe they can contact garzik, i heard he has some ideas about this ;) 05:49 -!- shesek [~shesek@unaffiliated/shesek] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 05:49 -!- Chris_Stewart_5 [~chris@unaffiliated/chris-stewart-5/x-3612383] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 05:56 * nsh smiles 06:27 -!- guido__ [~guido@185.137.204.140] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 06:27 -!- guido_ [~guido@185.137.204.140] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:28 < dionyziz> waxwing: thanks, I get it now 06:28 < instagibbs> "client side validation" has been around since mastercoin or maybe earlier :) 06:32 -!- schmidty [~schmidty@unaffiliated/schmidty] has quit [] 06:35 -!- schmidty [~schmidty@104-7-216-111.lightspeed.austtx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 06:35 -!- schmidty [~schmidty@104-7-216-111.lightspeed.austtx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Changing host] 06:35 -!- schmidty [~schmidty@unaffiliated/schmidty] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 06:36 -!- Krellan [~Krellan@2601:640:4000:a876:703a:6e9d:c2a4:b28c] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 06:41 -!- Krellan [~Krellan@2601:640:4000:a876:703a:6e9d:c2a4:b28c] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 06:47 -!- Chris_Stewart_5 [~chris@unaffiliated/chris-stewart-5/x-3612383] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:16 -!- Tralfaz [49dde1e1@gateway/web/freenode/ip.73.221.225.225] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:44 -!- tombusby [~tombusby@gateway/tor-sasl/tombusby] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:44 -!- tombusby [~tombusby@gateway/tor-sasl/tombusby] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:07 -!- Livestradamus [~Livestrad@unaffiliated/livestradamus] has quit [Quit: Livestradamus] 08:09 -!- Livestradamus [~Livestrad@unaffiliated/livestradamus] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:25 -!- morcos [~morcos@gateway/tor-sasl/morcos] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:34 -!- morcos [~morcos@gateway/tor-sasl/morcos] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:39 -!- guido__ [~guido@185.137.204.140] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 08:57 -!- d_t [~d_t@108-65-77-11.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 10:00 -!- setpill [~setpill@unaffiliated/setpill] has quit [Quit: o/] 10:14 -!- Chris_Stewart_5 [~chris@unaffiliated/chris-stewart-5/x-3612383] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 10:41 -!- elichai2 [uid212594@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-oslswfglxvkhcjen] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] 10:46 -!- Chris_Stewart_5 [~chris@unaffiliated/chris-stewart-5/x-3612383] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:38 -!- shesek [~shesek@185.3.144.77] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:38 -!- shesek [~shesek@185.3.144.77] has quit [Changing host] 11:38 -!- shesek [~shesek@unaffiliated/shesek] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:51 -!- rjected [~rjected@245-wifi-vip.cictr.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:53 -!- rjected [~rjected@245-wifi-vip.cictr.com] has quit [Client Quit] 12:27 -!- DeanGuss [~dean@gateway/tor-sasl/deanguss] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:28 -!- grzs [pinne@bsd.douchedata.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:28 -!- DeanGuss [~dean@gateway/tor-sasl/deanguss] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:39 -!- Chris_Stewart_5 [~chris@unaffiliated/chris-stewart-5/x-3612383] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:54 -!- sipa [~pw@gateway/tor-sasl/sipa1024] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 13:01 -!- sipa [~pw@gateway/tor-sasl/sipa1024] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:29 -!- Guyver2 [AdiIRC@guyver2.xs4all.nl] has quit [Quit: Going offline, see ya! 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