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(www.adiirc.com)] 05:32 -!- shesek [~shesek@unaffiliated/shesek] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 05:35 -!- Bjarki [~Bjarki@184.75.223.195] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 05:41 -!- ccdle12 [~ccdle12@p116127-ipngn200301takamatu.kagawa.ocn.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:41 -!- Aaronvan_ is now known as AaronvanW 05:51 -!- instagibbs [~instagibb@pool-100-15-135-248.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 05:54 -!- ccdle12 [~ccdle12@p116127-ipngn200301takamatu.kagawa.ocn.ne.jp] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 05:55 -!- simoen [~simoen@host44-6-dynamic.246-95-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 06:10 -!- Deinogalerix21 [~Deinogale@81.92.202.18] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 06:14 -!- Deinogalerix21 [~Deinogale@81.92.202.18] has quit [Client Quit] 06:23 -!- simoen [~simoen@host44-6-dynamic.246-95-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 06:36 -!- esotericnonsense [~esotericn@unaffiliated/esotericnonsense] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 06:36 -!- esotericnonsense [~esotericn@unaffiliated/esotericnonsense] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 06:50 -!- Tralfaz [~none@178.128.106.205] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 06:52 -!- davterra [~none@103.254.153.99] has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds] 07:00 -!- justanotheruser [~justanoth@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:11 -!- TheoStorm [~TheoStorm@host-g4sn8hj.cbn1.zeelandnet.nl] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 07:12 -!- simoen [~simoen@host44-6-dynamic.246-95-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:13 -!- michaelfolkson [~textual@146.185.56.214] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:26 < waxwing> the ECDSA 2 PC thing based on Paillier that was published (I guess over a few different papers, Lindell etc. but most recently that Moreno-Sanchez et al thing, right) - am I right in remembering there is no generalization to more than 2 parties? 07:31 -!- michaelfolkson [~textual@146.185.56.214] has quit [Quit: Sleep mode] 07:32 < waxwing> istr Lindell did a presentation on an idea of doing threshold signatures with it, but i also seem to recall it involved something whacky so maybe not directly relevant. i can try to look it up later but thought maybe someone here has better memory :) 07:38 -!- pinheadmz [~matthewzi@c-76-102-227-220.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: pinheadmz] 07:46 -!- neonknight646 is now known as neonknight64 07:46 < nickler> waxwing: I don't have good memory but reasonable notes. There seems to be https://eprint.iacr.org/2019/114.pdf (Paillier based) and https://eprint.iacr.org/2018/987.pdf (non-Paillier) 07:49 < waxwing> nickler, many thanks. the second is the one i was remembering Lindell giving a pres. on. I can't remember why I thought it a bit whacky, but, do we think this is could make a N of N multisig in a single ECDSA key be viable? 07:50 < waxwing> i have in mind more specifically, an application using adaptor secrets, which I know carries over as per the Moreno-Sanchez paper, but I have no clue whether such a thing might be remotely possible with ECDSA cleverness. 07:51 < waxwing> Hmm probably not a question people could reasonably be expected to answer, so no worries. 07:51 -!- renlord [~renlord@gateway/tor-sasl/renlord] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 07:51 -!- mryandao [~mryandao@gateway/tor-sasl/mryandao] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 07:51 < waxwing> sorry incomplete thought: an application using adaptor signatures, but with more than 2 parties, which I know carries over *for 2 parties* to the existing ECDSA thing, but .. etc etc 07:53 -!- BlueMatt [~BlueMatt@unaffiliated/bluematt] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:56 < nickler> fwiw the musig implementation in libsecp-zkp already supports multi-party adaptors 07:56 -!- queip [~queip@unaffiliated/rezurus] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 07:58 -!- rafalcpp [~racalcppp@84-10-11-234.static.chello.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 07:58 -!- rafalcpp [~racalcppp@84-10-11-234.static.chello.pl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:59 -!- shesek [~shesek@5.102.229.163] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:59 -!- shesek [~shesek@5.102.229.163] has quit [Changing host] 07:59 -!- shesek [~shesek@unaffiliated/shesek] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:00 -!- Bjarki [~Bjarki@184.75.223.195] has quit [] 08:01 < waxwing> oh does it? interestnig, thanks 08:06 -!- simoen [~simoen@host44-6-dynamic.246-95-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 08:07 < waxwing> i've just finished writing this blog post: https://joinmarket.me/blog/blog/multiparty-s6/ , which is what i was referring to. thoughts, corrections welcome 08:07 -!- renlord [~renlord@gateway/tor-sasl/renlord] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:08 -!- mryandao [~mryandao@gateway/tor-sasl/mryandao] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:08 < waxwing> nickler, on that point, was discussing a bit with andytoshi earlier about that idea ^ , seems like it's more possible than he thought. or somethign like that. also, it could of course be nonsense :) 08:10 < andytoshi> libsecp-zkp supports 2-party adaptors to be clear 08:10 < andytoshi> it might support S6 but that's purely accidental :P 08:11 < waxwing> right. i should mention for the cognoscenti that the only important part of the post is the section "Atomicity for N parties", if you're familiar with the background, the other parts won't be of much interest. 08:11 -!- queip [~queip@unaffiliated/rezurus] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:12 -!- KuluBot [~KuluBot@84.39.117.57] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:23 -!- ccdle12 [~ccdle12@p116127-ipngn200301takamatu.kagawa.ocn.ne.jp] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:25 -!- simoen [~simoen@host44-6-dynamic.246-95-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:41 -!- pinheadmz [~matthewzi@2603:3024:1c9b:a000:e885:3401:2f27:5a50] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:44 -!- michaelfolkson [~textual@199.203.214.3] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:44 -!- michaelfolkson [~textual@199.203.214.3] has quit [Client Quit] 08:54 -!- Guyver2 [AdiIRC@guyver2.xs4all.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:00 < instagibbs> anyone have thoughts on benefits of having the nBits field in the blockheader is, if any? All I can think of is corruption check when reading off disk 09:00 -!- simoen [~simoen@host44-6-dynamic.246-95-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 09:02 < instagibbs> AFAICT that's the only "use" in Core 09:05 -!- pinheadmz_ [~matthewzi@c-67-170-233-212.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:06 < instagibbs> gmaxwell, I heard you had a semi-plausible reason 09:08 -!- pinheadmz [~matthewzi@2603:3024:1c9b:a000:e885:3401:2f27:5a50] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 09:08 -!- pinheadmz_ is now known as pinheadmz 09:14 < belcher> so that the PoW can be checked independently from anything else? 09:15 -!- _Sam-- [~greybits@unaffiliated/greybits] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:17 < andytoshi> belcher: well, the issue is that you need the rest of the headers to know what `nBits` should be 09:18 < belcher> what it should be in terms of bitcoin consensus rules, yes, but perhaps PoW has value outside of all that since you can work out how much calculation would have been required to generate it 09:28 -!- pinheadmz [~matthewzi@c-67-170-233-212.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: pinheadmz] 09:29 -!- Chris_Stewart_5 [~chris@unaffiliated/chris-stewart-5/x-3612383] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 09:31 -!- pinheadmz [~matthewzi@c-67-170-233-212.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:34 < sipa> instagibbs: before headers-first, it was necessary 09:36 < instagibbs> elaborate for the ignorant please 09:36 -!- enemabandit [~enemaband@185.227.37.188.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 09:38 < sipa> instagibbs: right now, all parent headers are verified before downloading a block, and with those, you can just recompute nBits 09:39 < sipa> but before headers-first, blocks were downloaded sometimes before all parents were known 09:39 < sipa> with the nBits field in them, (some) PoW checks were possible even wirhout having all parents 09:47 -!- tromp [~tromp@2a02:a210:1585:3200:4482:95fb:8f3a:edc5] 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-!- Tralfaz is now known as davterra 11:00 -!- KuluBot [~KuluBot@84.39.117.57] has quit [] 11:01 -!- Chris_Stewart_5 [~chris@unaffiliated/chris-stewart-5/x-3612383] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:04 -!- RD [~RD@89.238.178.75] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:10 -!- tromp [~tromp@ip-213-127-56-81.ip.prioritytelecom.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:18 -!- justanotheruser [~justanoth@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 11:20 -!- mojtaba [~mojtaba@12.131.20.202] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:53 -!- BlueMatt [~BlueMatt@unaffiliated/bluematt] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds] 11:53 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:34 -!- Aaronvan_ [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:40 -!- Aaronvan_ is now known as AaronvanW 12:43 -!- shesek [~shesek@unaffiliated/shesek] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 12:49 -!- mojtaba [~mojtaba@12.131.20.202] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:01 -!- TheoStorm [~TheoStorm@host-g4sn8hj.cbn1.zeelandnet.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:08 -!- laptop500 [~laptop@host81-155-233-70.range81-155.btcentralplus.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:23 -!- CryptoDavid [uid14990@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-nfzonbmrquyksuqk] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:25 -!- Zenton [~user@unaffiliated/vicenteh] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:41 -!- TheoStorm [~TheoStorm@host-g4sn8hj.cbn1.zeelandnet.nl] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 13:41 -!- TheoStorm [~TheoStorm@host-g4sn8hj.cbn1.zeelandnet.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:43 -!- TheoStorm_ [~TheoStorm@host-g4sn8hj.cbn1.zeelandnet.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:47 -!- TheoStorm [~TheoStorm@host-g4sn8hj.cbn1.zeelandnet.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 13:48 < nsh> somebody has solved LCS35 (a crypto timelock puzzle set in 99 with an expected 35 year time before being tractable) 13:48 < nsh> (although this is technically under a press embargo for a few days still so perhaps don't blog about it or whatever) 13:49 -!- justanotheruser [~justanoth@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:49 < nsh> https://people.csail.mit.edu/rivest/pubs/RSW96.pdf 13:49 < nsh> https://people.csail.mit.edu/rivest/lcs35-puzzle-description.txt 13:58 -!- justanotheruser [~justanoth@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 2.4] 13:59 -!- justanotheruser [~justanoth@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:00 -!- RD [~RD@89.238.178.75] has quit [] 14:04 -!- gde331 [~gde33@84.39.117.57] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:04 -!- molz [~molly@unaffiliated/molly] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:04 -!- molz [~molly@unaffiliated/molly] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:08 -!- TheoStorm_ [~TheoStorm@host-g4sn8hj.cbn1.zeelandnet.nl] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:10 -!- TheoStorm [~TheoStorm@host-g4sn8hj.cbn1.zeelandnet.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:19 < nsh> .title https://www.csail.mit.edu/news/programmers-solve-mits-20-year-old-cryptographic-puzzle 14:19 < yoleaux> Programmers solve MIT’s 20-year-old cryptographic puzzle | MIT CSAIL 14:19 -!- shesek [~shesek@5.22.134.182] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:19 -!- shesek [~shesek@5.22.134.182] has quit [Changing host] 14:19 -!- shesek [~shesek@unaffiliated/shesek] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:19 < nsh> unembargoed i guess 14:19 -!- Chris_Stewart_5 [~chris@unaffiliated/chris-stewart-5/x-3612383] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 14:27 < pinheadmz> no on-chain bounty for this one huh? https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=293382.0 14:40 -!- simoen [~simoen@host44-6-dynamic.246-95-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:47 < nsh> would have required someone at MIT with knowledge of the solution or the factors of n to cooperate in order to make a bounty for it. 14:47 < nsh> whereas anyone can make a hash preimage 14:48 < nsh> well, don't even need to know the preimage for a collision bounty 15:05 -!- queip [~queip@unaffiliated/rezurus] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 15:06 -!- rafalcpp [~racalcppp@84-10-11-234.static.chello.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 15:16 -!- simoen [~simoen@host44-6-dynamic.246-95-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 15:18 -!- rafalcpp [~racalcppp@84-10-11-234.static.chello.pl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 15:18 -!- queip [~queip@unaffiliated/rezurus] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 15:28 -!- spinza [~spin@155.93.246.187] has quit [Quit: Coyote finally caught up with me...] 15:31 -!- tromp [~tromp@ip-213-127-56-81.ip.prioritytelecom.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:36 -!- spinza [~spin@155.93.246.187] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 15:37 -!- Guyver2 [AdiIRC@guyver2.xs4all.nl] has quit [Quit: Going offline, see ya! (www.adiirc.com)] 16:09 -!- ccdle12 [~ccdle12@p116127-ipngn200301takamatu.kagawa.ocn.ne.jp] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:10 -!- laptop500 [~laptop@host81-155-233-70.range81-155.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 16:15 -!- elichai2 [uid212594@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-kmuwegoznfdvdxth] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] 16:33 < sipa> waxwing: haha "trivial, modulo practicality" 16:39 -!- _whitelogger [~whitelogg@uruz.whitequark.org] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:40 -!- _whitelogger [~whitelogg@uruz.whitequark.org] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:40 < aj> needs shamir secret sharing worked in, and the characters should be Sally, Sam, Scarlett, Scott, Selma, and Sebastian 16:42 < sipa> https://www.nieuwsblad.be/cnt/dmf20190426_04353694 16:43 < sipa> site is in dutch, but it's about 9 children whose names are all permutations of ('a','l','e','x') 16:50 < aj> damn, i guessed "laxe" or "elxa" over "leax" 16:55 -!- TheoStorm [~TheoStorm@host-g4sn8hj.cbn1.zeelandnet.nl] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:58 < sipa> aj: the article mentions they're thinking about the names for the next 3 16:59 < aj> sipa: it's europe so i guess adding umlauts or something would work? 17:00 -!- gde331 [~gde33@84.39.117.57] has quit [] 17:03 < sipa> aj: haha, dutch doesn't have umlauts, though it does use the identically-looking trema symbol above vowels to indicate they're not part of a diphthong 17:03 < sipa> unfortunately, ea and ae are not diphtongs 17:06 -!- torax [~torax@31.13.191.137] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 17:07 < waxwing> aj, oh damn good point 17:07 < waxwing> sipa, i simply postulate a spherical schnorr signature. the rest is left as an exercise for the reader. 17:09 < waxwing> jokes aside, i don't think N is different from 3 there. the exact protocol suggested is horrible though (see note at the end about timing) for large numbers. but i'm not sure the exact protocol (the shuffle thing) is what's interesting. 17:09 < waxwing> if i'm wrong about that let me know. 17:10 < gmaxwell> instagibbs: it's still a nice design to put it explicitly, it lets you guage it independantly, so you could for example process higher diff headers strictly before low diff ones, etc. in some hashcash scheme where there wasn't a 'chain' its necessary. 17:11 < sipa> instagibbs: i believe Flyclient also needs it, if anyone would want to implement that for bitcoin 17:11 -!- BlueMatt [~BlueMatt@unaffiliated/bluematt] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 17:17 < gmaxwell> sipa: how does Flyclient differe from the log() size POW proofs we have in the sidechains whitepaper? 17:18 < sipa> gmaxwell: it's conceptually very similar 17:19 < sipa> the idea is that every (participating) block includes an MMR committing to all previous (participating) blocks 17:19 < gmaxwell> so far thats essentially the same. 17:20 < sipa> and then you select (fiat shamir like) a subset of blocks in the chain to reveal, and the verifier verifies that the MMRs are consistent with eachother (and due to being MMRs, effectively all branches are shared between them) 17:20 < sipa> it's not low-hash based, though 17:20 < sipa> afaik 17:21 < gmaxwell> then how does it actually demonstrate the cumulative amount of work in the chain? 17:21 < sipa> the low-hash based construction we had later led to NiPoPoW, which only has a security proof when the difficulty is constant 17:21 < gmaxwell> Right, I'm aware. 17:21 < sipa> iirc flyclient is secure even under varying difficulty 17:21 < sipa> though i need to read the paper for details 17:23 < sipa> iirc they have an optimal non-uniform sampling to show a certain amount of work with some security parameter 17:24 < gmaxwell> I see, so if a span claims a lot of work, it's likely to be sampled. 17:24 < gmaxwell> that seems kind of a dual of our design, in that we use the "apparent work" to select those samples for us. 17:25 -!- Chris_Stewart_5 [~chris@unaffiliated/chris-stewart-5/x-3612383] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 17:25 < sipa> i think the MMR is also a merkle sum tree with cumulative difficulty 17:26 < gmaxwell> right, makes sense, just to carry the data for sampling purposes. 17:26 < sipa> right 17:26 < gmaxwell> (I was about to say, I see that this would work but I think the consistency proofs would be big, but perhaps using a sum tree fixes that) 17:31 -!- BlueMatt [~BlueMatt@unaffiliated/bluematt] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:32 -!- BlueMatt [~BlueMatt@unaffiliated/bluematt] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 17:34 -!- pinheadmz [~matthewzi@c-67-170-233-212.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: pinheadmz] 17:44 -!- BlueMatt_ [~BlueMatt@ircb.bluematt.me] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 17:45 -!- BlueMatt [~BlueMatt@unaffiliated/bluematt] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds] 18:01 -!- BlueMatt [~BlueMatt@unaffiliated/bluematt] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 18:01 -!- BlueMatt_ [~BlueMatt@ircb.bluematt.me] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:01 -!- 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