--- Log opened Fri May 03 00:00:01 2019
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22:34 < rusty> aj: I only realized late last night that your point about downstream invalidation by third parties during a reorg is a bridge we've already crossed anyway, due to RBF.
22:44 < aj> rusty: RBF is due to "second parties" in my terminology (ie, people who can re-sign things), not completely unrelated third-parties (eg who malleate signatures by negating s)
22:45 < rusty> aj: No, the miner can well use an existing RBF alternative.
22:46 < rusty> aj: Just as in your argument, the miner can reattach an existing NOINPUT tx.
22:46 < aj> rusty: there's only an existing RBF alternative if a someone signed it
22:46 < rusty> aj: and honest people do that all the time.
22:47 < rusty> quote: aj: the bad case for lightning isn't for lightning users directly, it's for people receiving payments after eltoo-non-cooperative-closes; ie FUNDING->UPDATE1->UPDATE4->SETTLEMENT4->CLAIM->pay2exchange. reorg drops UPDATE1 from the chain, FUND->UPDATE4'->SETTLE4'->CLAIM' (all noinput, so all fine), but CLAIM->pay2exchange wasn't NOINPUT so is lost/doublespent
22:48 < rusty> Now, this scenario already exists.  Anyone receiving payment from a tx which spends an RBF is now vulnerable on reorg.
22:49 < rusty> A completely honest miner may do this because they didn't see the original, or even had an RBF variant which paid higher fee and a lower-fee one got in-chain first.
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--- Log closed Sat May 04 00:00:02 2019