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[~greybits@unaffiliated/greybits] has left #bitcoin-wizards ["Leaving"] 13:52 -!- accerqueira [~accerquei@177.214.104.91] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:52 -!- accerqueira [~accerquei@177.214.104.91] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:53 -!- Chris_Stewart_5 [~chris@unaffiliated/chris-stewart-5/x-3612383] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 13:56 -!- accerqueira [~accerquei@177.214.104.91] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:57 -!- accerqueira [~accerquei@177.79.101.187] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:00 -!- chx [~chx@89.238.178.75] has quit [] 14:03 -!- Guyver2 [AdiIRC@guyver2.xs4all.nl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:04 -!- toony1 [~toony@31.13.191.137] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:10 < jb55> sipa: does that bech32 issue affect mistyped segwit addresses? 14:15 -!- michaelfolkson [~textual@2a00:23c5:be04:e501:bc15:cfe4:c593:6429] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:19 < sipa> jb55: in theory yes; bech32 is designed to protect against substitution and transposition, not insert/delete of characters 14:24 < sipa> i'm going to analyse it more 14:24 -!- sfhi2 [~sfhi@178.255.154.106] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:27 -!- ddustin [~ddustin@unaffiliated/ddustin] has quit [] 14:27 -!- sfhi [~sfhi@178.255.154.106] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 14:28 -!- ddustin [~ddustin@unaffiliated/ddustin] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:30 -!- sfhi2 [~sfhi@178.255.154.106] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 14:48 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:49 -!- michaelsdunn1 [~michaelsd@unaffiliated/michaelsdunn1] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:56 -!- TheoStorm [~TheoStorm@host-tmsn8hj.cbn1.zeelandnet.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 15:01 -!- michaelfolkson [~textual@2a00:23c5:be04:e501:bc15:cfe4:c593:6429] has quit [Quit: Sleep mode] 15:03 -!- michaelfolkson [~textual@2a00:23c5:be04:e501:bc15:cfe4:c593:6429] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 15:05 -!- michaelfolkson [~textual@2a00:23c5:be04:e501:bc15:cfe4:c593:6429] has quit [Client Quit] 15:05 -!- michaelfolkson [~textual@2a00:23c5:be04:e501:bc15:cfe4:c593:6429] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 15:11 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 15:13 -!- michaelfolkson [~textual@2a00:23c5:be04:e501:bc15:cfe4:c593:6429] has quit [Quit: Sleep mode] 15:15 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 15:16 -!- fkinglag [~fkinglag@unaffiliated/fkinglag] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:20 < instagibbs> which issue? I miss some scrollback? 15:20 -!- spinza [~spin@155.93.246.187] has quit [Quit: Coyote finally caught up with me...] 15:22 < sipa> https://github.com/sipa/bech32/issues/51 15:26 -!- siom [~siom@165.84.231.26] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 15:28 -!- spinza [~spin@155.93.246.187] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 15:30 -!- fkinglag [~fkinglag@unaffiliated/fkinglag] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 15:30 -!- TheoStorm [~TheoStorm@host-tmsn8hj.cbn1.zeelandnet.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 15:31 -!- TheoStorm [~TheoStorm@host-tmsn8hj.cbn1.zeelandnet.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 15:33 -!- accerqueira [~accerquei@177.79.101.187] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 15:35 -!- accerqueira [~accerquei@191.32.142.90] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 15:43 -!- rusty [~rusty@pdpc/supporter/bronze/rusty] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 15:46 -!- justanotheruser [~justanoth@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:57 -!- harding [~harding@li1258-130.members.linode.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 16:05 -!- TheoStorm [~TheoStorm@host-tmsn8hj.cbn1.zeelandnet.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 16:05 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:07 -!- pinheadmz [~matthewzi@208.69.41.101] has quit [Quit: pinheadmz] 16:09 -!- pinheadmz [~matthewzi@208.69.41.101] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:13 -!- TheoStorm [~TheoStorm@host-tmsn8hj.cbn1.zeelandnet.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:22 -!- pinheadmz [~matthewzi@208.69.41.101] has quit [Quit: pinheadmz] 16:23 -!- michaelfolkson [~textual@2a00:23c5:be04:e501:bc15:cfe4:c593:6429] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:24 -!- rusty [~rusty@pdpc/supporter/bronze/rusty] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:24 -!- Chris_Stewart_5 [~chris@unaffiliated/chris-stewart-5/x-3612383] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:25 -!- michaelfolkson [~textual@2a00:23c5:be04:e501:bc15:cfe4:c593:6429] has quit [Client Quit] 16:26 -!- CryptoDavid [uid14990@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-xtrirlsydvpecjwz] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] 16:33 < andytoshi> jb55: fwiw, segwit v0 only allows two lengths (32 and 20), and unlike base58 these addresses are not variable-length, so insertions/deletions can be detected by length comparisons 16:34 < jb55> andytoshi: ok cool that's what I was wondering 16:35 < jb55> but now I'm wondering what sipa means by in theory? 16:35 < sipa> bech32 is not restricted to segwit v0 addresses 16:36 < andytoshi> well, there's a straightforward mapping from bech32 to scriptpubkeys which doesn't make any reference to length 16:36 < sipa> well, and bech32 can be used for other things than bitcoin addresses 16:36 < andytoshi> right - and even v1+ segwit addresses might be variable length (though i doubt it) 16:36 < jb55> yeah of course, like bolt11s 16:37 < jb55> I should do some tests with lightning invoices.. 16:38 < sipa> andytoshi: as suggested by bip-taproot they are (as v1 outputs with witness length distinct from 33 remain unemcumbered), but there are other mechanisms (like it has to correspond to a rounded-up conversion of a multiple of 8 bits, and the padding bits need to be zero) 16:38 < sipa> so i need to do some more analysis 16:38 < sipa> it's unfortunate in any case 16:38 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 16:50 -!- harding [~harding@li1258-130.members.linode.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:59 < jb55> hmm I got clightning to say "Invalid bolt11: p: truncated" but at least it still fails 16:59 -!- accerqueira [~accerquei@191.32.142.90] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 17:00 -!- toony1 [~toony@31.13.191.137] has quit [] 17:00 -!- rusty [~rusty@pdpc/supporter/bronze/rusty] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 17:01 < jb55> only because each field in the bolt11 is tagged with a length so it can catch these. I wonder about deletions now... 17:01 -!- accerqueira [~accerquei@191.32.159.189] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 17:04 -!- engil1 [~engil@185.5.172.148] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 17:04 -!- Lightsword [~Lightswor@107.170.253.193] has quit [Quit: ZNC] 17:04 -!- Lightsword [~Lightswor@2604:a880:1:20::1d3:9001] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 17:06 -!- guest3456 [491bb21f@gateway/web/freenode/ip.73.27.178.31] has left #bitcoin-wizards [] 17:12 -!- pinheadmz [~matthewzi@c-73-92-181-51.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 17:17 -!- ghost43 [~daer@gateway/tor-sasl/daer] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:17 -!- ghost43 [~daer@gateway/tor-sasl/daer] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 17:26 -!- Chris_Stewart_5 [~chris@unaffiliated/chris-stewart-5/x-3612383] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 17:29 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 17:32 -!- michaelfolkson [~textual@2a00:23c5:be04:e501:bc15:cfe4:c593:6429] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 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#bitcoin-wizards 18:35 -!- michaelfolkson [~textual@2a00:23c5:be04:e501:bc15:cfe4:c593:6429] has quit [Quit: Sleep mode] 18:38 -!- ccdle12 [~ccdle12@109.154.150.203.sta.inet.co.th] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 18:38 -!- TheoStorm [~TheoStorm@host-tmsn8hj.cbn1.zeelandnet.nl] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:43 -!- ccdle12 [~ccdle12@109.154.150.203.sta.inet.co.th] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 18:48 -!- ddustin_ [~ddustin@unaffiliated/ddustin] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:48 -!- ddustin [~ddustin@unaffiliated/ddustin] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 18:53 -!- ddustin [~ddustin@unaffiliated/ddustin] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:54 -!- ddustin [~ddustin@unaffiliated/ddustin] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 18:54 -!- ddustin [~ddustin@unaffiliated/ddustin] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:55 -!- ddustin [~ddustin@unaffiliated/ddustin] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 18:56 -!- ddustin [~ddustin@unaffiliated/ddustin] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:56 -!- ddustin [~ddustin@unaffiliated/ddustin] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 18:57 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 19:28 -!- Belkaar [~Belkaar@unaffiliated/belkaar] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 19:29 -!- Belkaar [~Belkaar@xdsl-84-44-230-2.nc.de] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 19:29 -!- Belkaar [~Belkaar@xdsl-84-44-230-2.nc.de] has quit [Changing host] 19:29 -!- Belkaar [~Belkaar@unaffiliated/belkaar] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 19:40 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 19:45 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 19:49 < ghost43> even with bitcoin addresses, one issue is that all already deployed software only validates length for segwit v0 19:50 < ghost43> this includes the reference implementation 19:50 < ghost43> makes sense, as the length is not known for future versions 19:51 < ghost43> but say, people start using v1 addresses, and give it out to existing slow to change implementations or older clients that will not validate v1 length 19:52 < ghost43> bc1p2qmrqwfhhwmdhm8qreqhkx5t0vsd5rtmqxpv9n3rhnjvfy9haq2qkzs3nqp << presumably valid segwit v1 address that can be plausibly spent 19:52 < ghost43> skip the second to last "q", pay to that: bc1p2qmrqwfhhwmdhm8qreqhkx5t0vsd5rtmqxpv9n3rhnjvfy9haq2qkzs3np 19:52 < ghost43> money lost :P 19:52 -!- ddustin [~ddustin@unaffiliated/ddustin] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:53 -!- ddustin [~ddustin@unaffiliated/ddustin] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 19:54 < ghost43> "all errors treated equally" sha256 had its pros, not just cons :) 20:00 -!- engil1 [~engil@185.5.172.148] has quit [] 20:04 -!- DragonEyes1 [~DragonEye@178.238.229.54] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 20:09 -!- justan0theruser is now known as justanotheruser 20:10 < ghost43> if, after the soft fork, consensus would enforce the witness program length to be 33 (or whatever is fit), then this risk would go away; but as above, bip-taproot does not enforce witness program length. but even a standardness rule would probably go a long way; and the whole scenario is a bit contrived 20:27 -!- ccdle12 [~ccdle12@109.154.150.203.sta.inet.co.th] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 20:32 -!- ccdle12 [~ccdle12@109.154.150.203.sta.inet.co.th] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 20:34 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 21:03 -!- _whitelogger [~whitelogg@uruz.whitequark.org] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:04 -!- _whitelogger [~whitelogg@uruz.whitequark.org] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 21:05 -!- michaelfolkson [~textual@2a00:23c5:be04:e501:bc15:cfe4:c593:6429] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 21:08 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 21:16 -!- michaelfolkson [~textual@2a00:23c5:be04:e501:bc15:cfe4:c593:6429] has quit [Quit: Sleep mode] 21:31 -!- ccdle12 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#bitcoin-wizards 23:00 -!- DragonEyes1 [~DragonEye@178.238.229.54] has quit [] 23:03 -!- murrayn [~murray@unaffiliated/murrayn] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 23:04 -!- dscho [~dscho@139.28.218.198] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 23:27 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 23:29 < jeremyrubin> Maybe this is silly and I'm missing something, but why use a Merkle Tree at all for taproot? Can't you just do a tweak for every branch? E.g., Q = Tweak(H(Branch 1), Tweak(....,Tweak(Branch N, P))? and then your control is just proving that you can remove one of the tweaks? 23:30 < sipa> jeremyrubin: that's linear 23:30 < sipa> merkle trees are logarithmic 23:30 < jeremyrubin> No? 23:30 < jeremyrubin> Is tweak non-commutative? 23:30 < sipa> yes 23:31 < sipa> if it was commutative we'd have a pretty awesome accumulator :) 23:31 < jeremyrubin> fair point 23:31 < sipa> in particular, tweaking includes a hash 23:32 < sipa> which would break any nice algebraic properties 23:32 < sipa> Tweak(P,s) = P + H(P || s)G 23:33 -!- rusty [~rusty@pdpc/supporter/bronze/rusty] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:35 < jeremyrubin> I see -- there's not a way to make the tweaks be something like... Tweak(P, s1, s2) = P + H(P || H(s1 || s2) || s1) G + H(P || H(s1 || s2) || s2) G 23:36 < jeremyrubin> so that each tweak is not independent of each other, and that you can reveal any one tweak in O(1) space 23:36 < sipa> no, that would imply you have invented an accumulator :) 23:36 < sipa> and afaik there are no EC based accumulators 23:37 < jeremyrubin> Humor me for my own learnin', what's the type of issue with the above EC accumulator? 23:38 < jeremyrubin> (also it's not an accumulator because it's static, can't be grown -- it's more like an accumulated) 23:38 < jeremyrubin> (so I'm not sure if accumulator is the right word) 23:39 < jeremyrubin> Concretely, how am I going to trick you into accepting some s3 against the above? 23:39 < jeremyrubin> s.t. s3 \not\in {s1,s2} 23:40 < sipa> you need to reveal all the scripts 23:40 < jeremyrubin> Why? 23:40 < sipa> how can the verifier compute the hashes otherwise? 23:40 < jeremyrubin> H(s1 || s2) can be provided as is 23:40 < sipa> no, the verifier has to be able to compute all the terms 23:41 < sipa> tell me exactly what you're giving the verifier, and i'll break it :) 23:41 < jeremyrubin> No? As long as we hold that the spender and receiver can verify this 23:41 < jeremyrubin> The bitcoin-verifier need not 23:41 < sipa> it needs to verify something! 23:41 < sipa> what are you revealing on chain when spending? 23:42 < jeremyrubin> Ok let me define three agents: Charlie the Chain, Sarah the Sender, Robert Receiver 23:42 < sipa> no, just tell me the exact things that go on chain 23:42 < sipa> with the s1, s2, P example above 23:42 < jeremyrubin> ok 23:43 < jeremyrubin> On chain goes Q=Tweak(P, s1, s2), P, s1, H(s1||s2) 23:43 < sipa> how does the verifier compute H(P || H(s1 || s2) || s2)G ? 23:44 < sipa> (as that's the difference between Q and P+H(P || H(s1||s2)) 23:44 < jeremyrubin> Ah my bad 23:44 < jeremyrubin> On chain goes as follows: 23:45 < jeremyrubin> Q=Tweak(P, s1, s2), P + H(P || H(s1||s2) ||s2) G, s1, H(s1||s2) 23:45 < sipa> now the verifier doesn't know P 23:46 < sipa> so it can't compute H(P || H(s1||s2) || s1)G 23:46 < jeremyrubin> Ah right, so you can just pick an arbitary (Q - stuff) and then cheat the person 23:46 < sipa> yes 23:46 < sipa> i mean; no, you can't verify anything 23:47 < jeremyrubin> All you'd be doing is checking that Q-stuff + stuff = Q 23:47 < jeremyrubin> which is pointless 23:47 < sipa> because you haven't given enough information to let the verifier determine that Q = P + H(P || H(s1 || s2) || s1) G + H(P || H(s1 || s2) || s2) G 23:47 < sipa> right 23:48 < sipa> what you can do is say Q = P + HashToPoint(s1) + HashToPoint(s2) + ... 23:48 < sipa> but you'll still need to reveal all scripts 23:48 < sipa> or at least a hash of every script if you make it Q = P + HashToPoint(H(s1)) + ... 23:57 -!- laptop500 [~laptop@92.118.153.193] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 23:57 < jeremyrubin> And if you were to do something like Q = H(P || H(s1 || s2) || s1) H(P || H(s1 || s2) || s2) P, and I reveal s1, P, H(s1 || s2), \prod H(P || H(s1 || s2) || sn)? 23:59 < jeremyrubin> (I'm not trying to claim that I've discovered something more than the holes in my knowledge) --- Log closed Thu May 30 00:00:26 2019