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22:21 < kallewoof> Right now the new signmessage system assumes that a proof is valid iff the standard script verify flags embedded into the proof are equal to those of the verifying node. This is done to deal with verifiers running into unknown consensus rules and mistakenly claiming an invalid proof is valid (or vice versa). I would argue, however, that the standard verify flags will very seldomly drop any flags and will almost always add
22:21 < kallewoof> flags. So a verifier who sees a proof with fewer flags than the verifier should conclude that a proof that is valid under the verifier's (stricter) rules, is valid. Is that a valid assumption? (Also: standard verify flags are apparently not standardized, which sucks for other software. I wonder if I should just apply a version and map it to a set of flags (i.e. v1 = p2sh + dersig + strictenc + minimaldata + nulldummy +
22:21 < kallewoof> discourage_upgradable_nops + cleanstack + minimalif + nullfail + cltv + csv + low_s + witness + dscourage_upgradable_wit + wit_pubkeytype + const_scriptcode and v2 would be all of that plus e.g. witness v1 or whatever the next thing is).
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22:38 < kallewoof> I didn't realize that the STANDARD_SCRIPT_VERIFY_FLAGS value was not standard across software, so I am going to switch this to a version number where each version is associated with a set of rules. This will have to be maintained, but it seems unreasonable to force on others. (And as Nicolas Dorier pointed out to me in private, if someone refactored these flags, suddenly every other software out there must be updated.
22:38 < kallewoof> Since people use different numbers for different rules, they have to keep a hardcoded number based on bitcoin core around, which is just silly.
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23:00 < sipa> kallewoof: my suggestion earlier was that you'd verify twice, once with just consensus rules and once with standard rules, and if the result differs, call it inconclusive
23:00 < sipa> this would automatically account for most uogrades
23:01 < sipa> because those generally get defined as things that used to be nonstandard before
23:01 < sipa> in fact, you just need consensus, and consensus+discourage flags
23:01 < sipa> (the ones making future witness versions invalid etc)
23:02 < kallewoof> sipa: Right now I am including and comparing the prover's flags. Sounds like I dno't even need to do that.
23:02 < sipa> you may still need a version number then, but just when the set of discourage mechanisms changes
23:02 < sipa> which is likely even less frequently than consensus changes
23:03 < sipa> oh you cannot leak the internal values of the verifier flagz
23:04 < sipa> those are internal to bitcoin core and can change arbitrarily
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23:04 < kallewoof> Prover you mean?
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23:04 < sipa> well, they're called verifier flags!
23:04 < kallewoof> And yeah, I realized.
23:04 < sipa> but yes on the prover side
23:04 < kallewoof> oops, yes that's true
23:05 < sipa> or the meaning of existing flags can change over time, and in fact has from time to.time
23:05 < sipa> one difficulty is that most software doesn't have (or even needs) a generic script interpreter
23:06 < sipa> so they're likely restricted to supporting subsets using template matching or whatever
23:09 < kallewoof> the signer puts the version in the proof, so if a version bump is needed to prevent a malicious fake proof, the evil dude will just not update the version number to get around it.
23:11 < sipa> do you understand my idea with two verifications?
23:11 < kallewoof> yes, that part i realize (and remember now).
23:11 < kallewoof> It's obviously the way to go and I will fix the BIP asap.
23:12 < sipa> so i guess you need a version number
23:13 < sipa> and you specify v0 as the current consensus rules, and addition verification using that + discourage_bla (and perhaps things like cleanstack, which may be used for upgrades)
23:13 < kallewoof> It's pointless though. The prover will just use whatever version makes their proof look valid. Or whatever the minimum version at the time happens to be.
23:14 < kallewoof> The verifier will use THEIR standard flags for proof 1 and the consensus flags for proof 2 and base their decision on that, regardless of prover version.
23:15 < sipa> wowow there is just one proof
23:15 < kallewoof> Sorry, I meant verification 1 and 2.
23:15 < sipa> hmm, let me think about thay
23:15 < kallewoof> The two rounds you mentioned above. Same proof both times.
23:15 < sipa> yeah
23:16 < sipa> this is hard
23:16 < sipa> i guess you can do without version number, indeed
23:16 < sipa> it's scary though
23:19 < kallewoof> I'm not sure how a version flag would prevent anything.
23:19 < kallewoof> Anything attack-y.
23:20 < aj> isn't it:  if (VerifyStd==OK) { GOOD } else if (VerifyCons==OK && myVER < theirVER) { report("need version newer than theirVER"); } else { BAD } ?
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23:22 < kallewoof> aj: prover can just set theirVER to myVER + 1 and avoid BAD
23:23 < aj> kallewoof: yeah. and try to convince you to upgrade to bitcoin 2.19 only available from the-real-bitcoin.biz
23:24 < kallewoof> Right, but we get the two cases (without BAD) even without a version. A malicious prover would use a version deliberately higher. Nothing really changes.
23:25 < NicolasDorier> aj: I am not fan of this idea, the problem is: Any consensus upgrade will basiclaly make unupgraded verifyer reporting "need version newer than theirVER". Even if the new consensus rule actually does not impact at all the verifying process. (P2PWKH)
23:26 < NicolasDorier> I think the version though for being able to upgrade the proof format
23:26 < sipa> no
23:26 < sipa> new consensus rules that aren't used in the proof won't change the result
23:27 < NicolasDorier> `if (VerifyStd==OK) { GOOD } else if (VerifyCons==OK && myVER < theirVER) { report("need version newer than theirVER"); } else { BAD }`
23:27 < NicolasDorier> in this case yes
23:27 < NicolasDorier> in this case it would
23:27 < sipa> oh, i was talking about my consensus/standard check
23:27 < NicolasDorier> yeah I like it
23:28 < NicolasDorier> I am just wondering if any version field is useful at all. I think it can be useful to upgrade the signature format one day
23:28 < NicolasDorier> outside of that I don't think it is
23:28 < NicolasDorier> the proof format I mean
23:28 < sipa> it's scary that it does mean that old nodes with long outdated discourage rules may accept an invalid proof
23:28 < sipa> but i also don't see a way to prevent that
23:29 < NicolasDorier> well the source of truth is always somebody's node so no way to prevent this
23:29 < NicolasDorier> also the signer would be able to trick the verifier anyway since he is in control of what to put in the version field
23:29 < kallewoof> A non-malicious prover may inadvertently give someone a proof that is invalid but the verifier doesn't catch it. The prover would never make an invald proof though, unless they are malicious, and if they are, they would use a version flag that would make their proof validate for the victim.
23:31 < NicolasDorier> Anyway for whichever reason I think a version number is fine. There is at least once reason: being able to change proof format later on if needed
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--- Log closed Thu Aug 01 00:00:26 2019