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07:36 < kanzure> scaling bitcoin transcripts overview https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2019-September/017296.html
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09:25 < jonatack> kanzure: Outstanding resource. Thank you!
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12:50 < sanket1729> Is there is security proof for the taproot/pay2contract construction? I can see that it relies on the fact that we cannot find points C1, C2, scripts S1, S2 such `C1 + H(C1 || S1)*G` == `C2 + H(C2 || S2)*G`.
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13:39 < sipa> sanket1729: there are probably more security properties that are desirable
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13:47 < sipa> i think andytoshi had a security proof somewhere
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13:58 < andytoshi> nah i never finished it .. https://github.com/apoelstra/taproot/blob/master/main.tex
13:59 < andytoshi> sanket1729: but yeah, the property you describe is implied by the random oracle property for H
13:59 < andytoshi> and appears *not* to be implied by any standard assumption
13:59 < andytoshi> e.g. collision resistance is not sufficient, even though this property is really similar to collision resistence
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14:02 < sipa> andytoshi: you show properties for signatures, which i guess is the stronger property
14:02 < sipa> but is there an easy way to show that f(P,s) = P + H(P||s)*G is a collision resistant function if H is modeled as a random oracle?
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14:18 < andytoshi> H being a random oracle and H being a random oracle are equivalent
14:18 < andytoshi> which you can argue statistically
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14:19 < andytoshi> basically you start with a game where f is a RO, observe that f is then collision resistant, then you switch to a game where H is a RO, and argue indistinguishability
14:19 < sipa> oh, of course
14:20 < sipa> you mean H being RO and f being RO are equivalent
14:23 < sanket1729> I worked out something with a new cryptographer at UIUC. It turns out that we can prove it with a weaker assumption of RO, specifically oberservable RO. meaning the queries to the oracle are observable as well as the responses to those queries can be programmed.
14:23 < sipa> exactly which property do you prove?
14:24 < sanket1729> f(P,s) is collision resistant
14:26 < sanket1729> I will write something up and try to share it by tomorrow.
14:28 < sipa> how does observable RO work and how does it differ from normal RO?
14:29 < sipa> (or do you have a link to something i can read)
14:36 < sanket1729> For doing a proof we get access for all Ci,Si queires to the RO which were made by the adversary
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14:40 < sanket1729> For doing a proof, we can make use of the fact we know inputs given the oracle. So, at a high level,we also make use of the fact that input to H(C ...) is allowed to be observed in outside the hash
14:43 < sanket1729> sipa: Does the abstract of this help? https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-3-642-41227-1_5
14:44 < sanket1729> According, to Dakshita Khuranna(the new faculty who helped with this proof). "For most of the applied community, the RO model is the same as the observable, programmable RO model"
14:45 < sanket1729> So, maybe I am being pedantic about some minor difference.
14:46 < andytoshi> i don't think it's minor
14:47 < andytoshi> if i understand right, observable RO is what most people intuitively take RO to mean (i.e. you provide a random tape which is fixed in advance, and the challenger can see it in advance)
14:47 < andytoshi> whereas the actual RO model lets the challenger program it in ways that aren't clearly sensible
14:47 < andytoshi> or rather, which make the paper seem to deviate from reality
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14:53 < sipa> oh it means the simulation can't program the RO output based on the input to the hash function calls?
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14:59 < waxwing> the proofs i read all seem to involve programming the RO, not having it only known in advance, i wasn't smart enough to have an intuition of what it ought to be before that :)
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--- Log closed Tue Sep 17 00:00:14 2019