--- Log opened Wed Dec 18 00:00:40 2019 00:05 -!- laptop500 [~laptop@212.203.87.198] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:16 -!- spinza [~spin@102.132.245.16] has quit [Quit: Coyote finally caught up with me...] 00:33 -!- spinza [~spin@102.132.245.16] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:43 -!- kabaum [~kabaum@185.224.57.161] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 00:50 -!- marcoagner [~user@2001:8a0:6a55:8f00:81e3:c539:c514:2d18] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:51 -!- jonatack [~jon@2a01:e0a:53c:a200:bb54:3be5:c3d0:9ce5] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 01:00 -!- fancyremarker [~fancyrema@195.206.169.238] has quit [] 01:22 -!- kabaum [~kabaum@93.182.128.34] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:36 -!- spinza [~spin@102.132.245.16] has quit [Quit: Coyote finally caught up with me...] 01:47 -!- gde331 [~gde33@185.204.1.185] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:47 -!- spinza [~spin@102.132.245.16] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:50 -!- llfourn` [~user@n1-43-68-239.mas2.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:51 -!- Guyver2 [AdiIRC@guyver2.xs4all.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:55 -!- llfourn` [~user@n1-43-68-239.mas2.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 02:07 -!- jeremyrubin [~jr@c-67-180-60-249.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 02:12 -!- spinza [~spin@102.132.245.16] has quit [Quit: Coyote finally caught up with me...] 02:26 -!- spinza [~spin@102.132.245.16] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 02:34 -!- spinza [~spin@102.132.245.16] has quit [Quit: Coyote finally caught up with me...] 03:00 -!- t-bast [~t-bast@2a01:e34:ec2c:260:4963:136d:7004:6b3e] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 03:01 < t-bast> Hey! I've been wondering if people have already suggested in the past to split the signature into two separate stack arguments for OP_CHECKSIG? 03:01 < t-bast> It would allow a very limited form of OP_SPLIT/CAT that would allow leveraging nonce reuse as a feature against double-spending 03:02 < t-bast> Unless I missed something obvious (which is totally possible) 03:03 -!- spinza [~spin@102.132.245.16] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 03:05 < t-bast> More details here: https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/lightning-dev/2019-December/002394.html 03:07 < gmaxwell> That would make the overwhelmingly common case less efficient, doesn't seem like a good tradeoff. 03:07 < gmaxwell> Also, sharing R in advance is insecure if someone else can grind the message you'll sign. 03:09 < gmaxwell> already the encoding is carefully setup to use a fixed length for r, so it could be split and compared with a hash (for example) with other opcodes. 03:23 < t-bast> In my case I wouldn't be sharing R in advance since it would be hidden in the script leaf. However when I do reveal it, that means I'm committing to spend my UTXO with that specific tx. I believe this could be quite helpful in many scenario, doesn't it? 03:23 < t-bast> Why does it make the common case less efficient? 03:24 < t-bast> And with what opcodes could you do that split? That needs new opcodes in a soft-fork, right? 03:24 < gmaxwell> it takes more space to serialize two stack elements instead of one. 03:24 < t-bast> (thanks for the answer, sorry it brings more questions) 03:25 < t-bast> Interesting, I don't know how that serialization is done, this surprises me a bit but I understand that this could be an issue. Would it be hard to allow both cases for OP_CHECKSIG? Either a single arg or a split arg? 03:25 < gmaxwell> t-bast: a split or a cat would be sufficient, which were purposefully left out of tapscript even though the application of single show signatures is a known one... either can be added via OP_SUCCESS opcodes. 03:26 < gmaxwell> t-bast: only by introducing a seperate OP_CHECKSIG opcode. 03:26 < t-bast> Ok so that would be added in another soft-fork; the risk being that it's more general to add the whole opcode than to restrict it to splitting the signature into R and s 03:27 < gmaxwell> t-bast: not clear to me that the leaf is sufficient. It needs to be the case the the signer does not reveal R before he knows the one and only message he will sign with it. He can reveal a hash of R, however. 03:28 < gmaxwell> If I know the R you will use and then can grind the message I'll ask you to sign, I can extract signatures which you didn't sign. (particularly if you'll run several instances in parallel with different R and the same pubkey). Hashing R avoids that problem. 03:29 < t-bast> You would reveal the script and R only once you produce the signature (at least in my use-case). So I don't think what I'm doing can be subject to that kind of grinding, but I'll think about it more... 03:29 < gmaxwell> K, maybe in that case it's okay. It's just a surprising vulnerablity that most single show signature attempts have. 03:31 < t-bast> Do you think adding a new OP_CHECKSIG_SPLIT that expects the signature split into two stack arguments would be open to discussion for the Taproot soft-fork? 03:31 < t-bast> Or is it a complete no-go? 03:33 < gmaxwell> I think adding an additional op-code particular for a niche use case would be a total no-go... after all, OP_CAT was omitted and it is utterly trivial and obviously useful (in particular it would let you construct this) 03:34 < gmaxwell> t-bast: how do you avoid the single show being a very limited protection? if someone double spends, they race to collect the coins. (or have their double spend show up in a finney attack) 03:34 -!- andytoshi [~apoelstra@unaffiliated/andytoshi] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:34 < t-bast> re "That would make the overwhelmingly common case less efficient, doesn't seem like a good tradeoff", is that still true for Tapscript? As long as the key-path spend is using a normal signature (not split), are we really expecting many uses of OP_CHECKSIG in script-path spends to be the common cases (instead of OP_CHECKSIGADD which could keep a single stack argument). 03:35 < t-bast> True that if someone double-spends, there's a race to 03:35 < t-bast> steal the UTXO. But the original owner has everything to lose, others can bid all the way to the UTXO amount minus something very small to still gain something 03:35 < gmaxwell> t-bast: yes, because key path spending with multiple parties requires multiple rounds of interaction. Even for lightning it sounds like people are planning on using checksigs for latency reasons. 03:36 < t-bast> So it's only an incentive security that the owner never has an incentive to double spend (but depends on the exact use-case though) 03:37 < gmaxwell> t-bast: right but the original owner can spend the full value of the utxo (by making a payment via it) AND attempt to steal it back in a double spend. If you'll only trust them up to (say) the amount of a tx fee then I suppose that would likely be incentive compatible (though still lose in a finney attack) 03:38 < t-bast> That's true, it isn't a protection for all protocols that would leverage it. For our use-case in Lightning I think it works well, but maybe that doesn't reflect how other people would want to use that single-show construction. 03:39 < gmaxwell> well it's come up many times before, and in most cases it seems to be "potentially interesting, but more limited than it seems at first blush" 03:39 < gmaxwell> I don't know enough about the potential lightning usage to say, just wanted to make sure you'd considered finney attacks and races in general. 03:40 < t-bast> In Lightning it would be pretty useful though, because it would mean that you don't need to wait for a confirmation on a channel funding tx -> as soon as it's in the mempool and using this single-show signature, you can start using the channel. That unlocks quite a few interesting features where we'd create channels on-the-fly atomically 03:41 < t-bast> Thanks for all your comments, I'll keep thinking about this and try to justify a potential opcode for this with compelling use-cases 03:41 < gmaxwell> t-bast: if you can just use the channel outright, why woudldn't I open a channel to you, and as soon as it's mempooled pay mayself (via a loop around to another channel) the full value. Then attempt to double spend it? 03:42 < gmaxwell> If I lose the double spend, I lose nothing (except an otherwise useful channel I paid a fee to create). 03:42 < gmaxwell> And if I win, I double my money at your expense. 03:43 < t-bast> Good point, this doesn't work for routing nodes: in my case this is used to open a channel to a non-routing node, so you can't do that. But that's a limited use-case then... 03:45 < t-bast> You would only need to disallow relaying in the direction funder -> fundee though while the tx is unconfirmed 03:45 < t-bast> And then that attack vector disappears, right? 03:46 -!- orlovsky [~dr-orlovs@194.230.155.171] has quit [Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com] 03:46 -!- dr-orlovsky [~dr-orlovs@194.230.155.171] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 03:47 < gmaxwell> Yes but it's not like you can relay in the other direction, as there are no funds in that direction. 03:48 -!- ghost43 [~daer@gateway/tor-sasl/daer] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 03:49 < t-bast> In the use-case I'm exploring, the idea is to create a channel on the fly when relaying to a node to which we don't have a channel (or not enough capacity) 03:49 < t-bast> That means that we would create the channel with some funds on the fundee's side 03:49 < t-bast> And while the channel is unconfirmed, the fundee can still receive payments for which he's the recipient 03:50 < t-bast> Which puts more funds on his side that we can then spend 03:50 < t-bast> It's the fundee who would reject payments for which he's not the final recipient until the funding tx confirms 03:50 -!- llfourn` [~user@n1-43-68-239.mas2.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 03:54 -!- llfourn` [~user@n1-43-68-239.mas2.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:55 -!- llfourn` [~user@n1-43-68-239.mas2.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 04:00 -!- gde331 [~gde33@185.204.1.185] has quit [] 04:01 -!- Chris_Stewart_5 [~chris@unaffiliated/chris-stewart-5/x-3612383] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 04:02 -!- kabaum [~kabaum@93.182.128.34] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 04:04 -!- TheoStorm [~TheoStorm@host-p8vu8h.cbn1.zeelandnet.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 04:08 -!- llfourn` [~user@n1-43-68-239.mas2.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:08 -!- spinza [~spin@102.132.245.16] has quit [Quit: Coyote finally 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