--- Log opened Tue Dec 31 00:00:53 2019
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02:19 < waxwing> gmaxwell, afaiu the idea was that given a subset of inputs of sum X, there would be many possible subsets of outputs summing to X, not just one; for some reasonably low range of possible output amounts and say 100 outputs i think it's a valid observation, but not a "safe lower bound" kinda thing.
02:19 < waxwing> so yeah for sure it's brittle.
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02:20 < waxwing> i found myself thinking something more concrete though: if i wanted to use such a large coinjoin (eg 100 in/out) to do a payment, the problem is I'd be using 2 outs not an arbitrary number
02:20 < waxwing> and then you only have a number of possibilities quadratic in the number of outputs, which isn't nearly big enough (e.g. 100**2 cf range of possible output amounts like around 10^7 or 8 or something)
02:22 < waxwing> you can ofc just make random large numbers of outputs but that's problematic. anyway i think the main point of brittleness (it might be fine on average but maybe you are screwed in this particular case) hits the idea pretty hard.
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02:27 < waxwing> oh i see now they were considering a setup like 100 in, 10 out, i was imagining something different (100 in, 100 out). well anyway.
02:32 < waxwing> was chatting with laurentmt on mastodon about it, he summarises the issue well imo: we tend to easily find upper bounds in these kinds of analyses, but they're useless, we need lower bounds.
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02:39 < gmaxwell> right, the attacker wins if with decent odds, he can deanon *any* outputs... he doesn't have to deanon all outputs.
02:41 < gmaxwell> of course, one can use coinjoin in a way that doesn't strongly produce privacy to mess up simplistic analysis... I pointed this out in the original CJ thread (and for some reason the fact that I did this for a long time caused people to think that matching up outputs wasn't something that had been thought of)
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05:16 < waxwing> yeah good point. if you don't look at it as intended to provide *guarantees*, then a whole variety of different designs are viable. so my quote of 'useless' above isn't entirely right, even an average case win can be interesting., from that pov.
05:18 < gmaxwell> well for example, in a future world where signature aggregation materially reduces transaction costs...
05:18 < gmaxwell> it would make a lot of sense to pretty eagerly try to coinjoin, even if you don't care about any privacy improvement at all.
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05:19 < gmaxwell> and people coinjoining for privacy would be happy to take on some of those users to help share their fees and also because with the possibility that some users are join-paying, really every mapping is possible...
05:24 < waxwing> yeah i somehow try to straddle slightly conflicting views of it; on the one hand i've kind of campaigned for people to realise the 'intrinsic fungibility'; satoshis aren't watermarked; even basic transactions are not deterministically interpretable one-way only; while at the same time, we want to make a stab at creating a real confusion effect so that fixed-interpretation-analysis doesn't seem so plausible.
05:24 < waxwing> the economic incentive plus uneven amount area is the reason we should definitely keep our eye on these lines of thinking i guess.
05:25 < waxwing> in other news, we still need a trick that makes CT palatable so that this particular thorny issue is solved. that seems rather more on-topic :)
05:26 < gmaxwell> waxwing: rhavar had a thing where you could give your coins list to a server and it could compute a set of inputs for each party to send usign an smt solver, that made the participants indistinguishable.
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06:53 < M7918070_[m]> gmaxwell What about just rounding it? I'm not an expert on game theory, but isn't this a Schelling point? If you input 0.00719 BTC and get 7x 0.001 BTC outputs + 1 0.00019 BTC output, and everyone else does the same, then it's very fungible. And the remaining 0.00019 BTC output can be combined with other such outputs of yours in a new CoinJoin TXN to get new fungible homogeneously sized outputs.
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--- Log closed Wed Jan 01 00:00:49 2020