--- Log opened Thu Feb 27 00:00:06 2020 00:22 -!- marcoagner [~user@bl11-16-246.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:31 -!- Belkaar [~Belkaar@xdsl-87-78-95-124.nc.de] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:31 -!- Belkaar [~Belkaar@xdsl-87-78-95-124.nc.de] has quit [Changing host] 00:31 -!- Belkaar [~Belkaar@unaffiliated/belkaar] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:33 -!- Belkaar [~Belkaar@unaffiliated/belkaar] has quit [Client Quit] 00:36 -!- Belkaar [~Belkaar@xdsl-87-78-95-124.nc.de] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:36 -!- Belkaar [~Belkaar@xdsl-87-78-95-124.nc.de] has quit [Changing host] 00:36 -!- Belkaar [~Belkaar@unaffiliated/belkaar] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:51 -!- rafalcpp [~racalcppp@ip-178-211.ists.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 00:51 -!- queip [~queip@unaffiliated/rezurus] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 00:53 -!- rafalcpp [~racalcppp@ip-178-211.ists.pl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:56 -!- queip [~queip@unaffiliated/rezurus] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:00 -!- Fiver [~Fiver@139.28.218.198] has quit [] 01:12 -!- Guyver2 [Guyver@guyver2.xs4all.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:18 -!- Plasmastar1 [~Plasmasta@185.169.255.76] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:21 -!- aupiff [~aupiff@IGLD-80-230-170-81.inter.net.il] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 01:25 -!- RubenSomsen [sid301948@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-bbjyzezpdeacymrx] has quit [] 01:26 -!- RubenSomsen [sid301948@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-rrlpzukoyaptdrux] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:31 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:33 -!- ghost43 [~daer@gateway/tor-sasl/daer] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:35 -!- ghost43 [~daer@gateway/tor-sasl/daer] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:36 -!- murrayn [~murray@unaffiliated/murrayn] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:37 -!- rockhouse [~rockhouse@unaffiliated/rockhouse] has quit [Quit: Ping timeout (120 seconds)] 01:37 -!- aupiff [~aupiff@IGLD-80-230-170-81.inter.net.il] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:37 -!- rockhouse [~rockhouse@unaffiliated/rockhouse] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:38 -!- murray [~murray@static.56.37.130.94.clients.your-server.de] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:38 -!- murray is now known as Guest23538 01:42 -!- aupiff [~aupiff@IGLD-80-230-170-81.inter.net.il] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 01:56 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:56 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 02:03 -!- ghost43 [~daer@gateway/tor-sasl/daer] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:04 -!- ghost43 [~daer@gateway/tor-sasl/daer] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 02:13 -!- rafalcpp [~racalcppp@ip-178-211.ists.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 02:14 -!- aupiff [~aupiff@IGLD-80-230-170-81.inter.net.il] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 02:15 -!- Emcy [~Emcy@unaffiliated/emcy] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 02:29 -!- Emcy [~Emcy@unaffiliated/emcy] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 03:08 -!- shush [~pawn@2605:e000:1c02:c564:f4bb:ce41:bec9:88e2] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 03:12 -!- shush [~pawn@2605:e000:1c02:c564:f4bb:ce41:bec9:88e2] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 03:21 < yanmaani> What are the current constructions for set membership proofs? I know of the Merklix tree (and friends, e.g. sorted Merkle tree), where each insertion requires the re-hash of some amount of data 03:21 < yanmaani> and the other one that they use in Bitcoin Cash, where you can't prove membership, just hash the set 03:22 < yanmaani> (RSA accumulator?) 03:22 < yanmaani> Is there a 'nice' one, where you have a function f(set hash, new data) -> set hash w/ new data, and a function f(set hash, some data) -> bool data_is_in_set? 03:23 < yanmaani> or f(set hash, some data, succinct proof) 03:23 < zmnscpxj> Merkle trees are f(set hash, some data, succinct proof) for some definitions of "succinct" 03:24 < yanmaani> or I mean nonmembership proofs 03:24 < yanmaani> Yeah but you can't insert. 03:24 < zmnscpxj> you can, you just have to change every proof you have 03:24 < yanmaani> Yeah but you can't do it from the hash 03:24 < zmnscpxj> similar to how functional programming languages do their trees 03:24 < yanmaani> if you have a gazillion items, you can't make a new proof with a gazillion + 1 items 03:24 < zmnscpxj> a hash is just a pointer, you just change all the pointers in all your proofs 03:24 < yanmaani> without first having to get the whole tree 03:25 < yanmaani> Yeah but that requirest you to have the tree on disk/in memory 03:25 -!- Zenton [~user@unaffiliated/vicenteh] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 03:25 < zmnscpxj> yes, on disk 03:25 < yanmaani> Yeah but is there an option which doesn't require this? 03:25 < zmnscpxj> otherwise you are trying to compress a lot of data into a single succinct hash, which is information-theoertically impossible 03:26 < yanmaani> In theory, no. The proof could contain the data you are putting in there. 03:26 < zmnscpxj> unless I misunderstand exactly what your goals are 03:26 < yanmaani> so for bitcoin specifically 03:26 < yanmaani> you make a set hash accumulator thing 03:26 < yanmaani> you put all the UTXOs in there 03:26 < yanmaani> you query nodes, "Is this in the UTXO set" 03:26 < zmnscpxj> then just Merklize a functional-programming ("persistent") red-black tree 03:26 < zmnscpxj> Or you use Utreexos, and mutate all your proofs at each block 03:26 < yanmaani> they either say "yes, here's your UTXO" (as things are now with SPV unchanged) 03:27 < yanmaani> or they say "no it's not, here is proof" 03:27 < yanmaani> Utreexos? 03:27 < zmnscpxj> A tree of merkle trees, do not have the math on hand 03:27 < zmnscpxj> by Tadge Dryja 03:28 < yanmaani> see I found this. https://crypto.stackexchange.com/questions/64083/inclusion-and-exclusion-proofs-in-rsa-accumulators It has exclusion proofs 03:28 -!- belcher [~belcher@unaffiliated/belcher] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 03:29 < zmnscpxj> yes. and at each addition, you have to mutate any proofs-of-inclusion you are interested in. 03:30 < yanmaani> Inclusion proofs can be handled using the normal blockchain though. 03:30 < yanmaani> If you are only interested in exclusion proofs? 03:31 < zmnscpxj> I think you still need to mutate each proof at each addition still. but, do not hold me to that; my knowledge here is hazy. 03:31 < yanmaani> Mutate each noninclusion proof? 03:32 < yanmaani> A non-issue I think. The intended use-case is you query it, and if you get it you're satisfied. You can throw it away. 03:32 < yanmaani> so that is fine, I think. 03:32 < zmnscpxj> as in: your function is (compact_set, new_data, proof) -> (compact_set, proof) 03:32 < zmnscpxj> possibly doable in any number of ways 03:33 < yanmaani> right, and also (compact_set, proof, alleged_data) -> bool 03:33 < yanmaani> and they should be fast 03:33 < yanmaani> so any pointers on how you would do this? 03:34 < zmnscpxj> I have none; this is not a field I have much experience in, sorry. 03:34 < zmnscpxj> try looking up utreexos by Thaddeus Dryja 03:34 < zmnscpxj> I think there is a paper somewhere, also comparisons to RSA I think 03:35 < zmnscpxj> which is basically designed for UTXO sets and queries 03:45 -!- ghost43 [~daer@gateway/tor-sasl/daer] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:45 -!- ghost43 [~daer@gateway/tor-sasl/daer] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 03:49 -!- nick_freeman [~nick_free@92.116.140.149] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 03:53 -!- nick_freeman [~nick_free@92.116.140.149] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:53 -!- pivo [~pivo@98.128.186.78] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 03:53 -!- nick_freeman [~nick_free@2001:16b8:301f:1000:4c00:28c0:8cde:cdef] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 03:55 -!- nick_freeman [~nick_free@2001:16b8:301f:1000:4c00:28c0:8cde:cdef] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:56 -!- nick_freeman [~nick_free@92.116.140.149] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 03:58 -!- aupiff [~aupiff@IGLD-80-230-170-81.inter.net.il] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 04:00 -!- Plasmastar1 [~Plasmasta@185.169.255.76] has quit [] 04:04 -!- aupiff [~aupiff@IGLD-80-230-170-81.inter.net.il] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 04:16 -!- zmnscpxj [~zmnscpxj@gateway/tor-sasl/zmnscpxj] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 04:17 < yanmaani> thanks 04:17 -!- esden1 [~esden@185.189.112.19] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 04:22 -!- Chris_Stewart_5 [~Chris_Ste@unaffiliated/chris-stewart-5/x-3612383] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 04:28 -!- Emcy [~Emcy@unaffiliated/emcy] has quit [Ping 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[~aupiff@IGLD-80-230-170-81.inter.net.il] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 06:10 -!- tromp [~tromp@2a02:a210:ca3:2800:4999:1e25:9124:252d] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:14 -!- tromp [~tromp@2a02:a210:ca3:2800:d1b4:8939:2b1:3324] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 06:22 -!- mauz555 [~mauz555@2a01:e0a:56d:9090:7172:4493:da39:9e7a] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 06:26 -!- ayay [6daf62ce@109.175.98.206] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 06:33 -!- aupiff [~aupiff@IGLD-80-230-170-81.inter.net.il] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 06:38 -!- aupiff [~aupiff@IGLD-80-230-170-81.inter.net.il] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 06:48 -!- mauz555 [~mauz555@2a01:e0a:56d:9090:7172:4493:da39:9e7a] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:51 -!- nick_freeman [~nick_free@92.116.140.149] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 06:53 -!- pivo [~pivo@98.128.186.78] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 06:54 -!- mdunnio [~mdunnio@208.59.170.5] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 06:59 < kanzure> yanmaani: zmnscpxj: https://diyhpl.us/wiki/transcripts/scalingbitcoin/tel-aviv-2019/edgedevplusplus/accumulators/ and https://diyhpl.us/wiki/transcripts/bitcoin-core-dev-tech/2018-10-08-utxo-accumulators-and-utreexo/ 07:00 -!- esden1 [~esden@185.189.112.19] has quit [] 07:00 -!- nick_freeman [~nick_free@92.116.140.149] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:06 -!- mauz555 [~mauz555@2a01:e0a:56d:9090:7172:4493:da39:9e7a] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:10 -!- shush [~pawn@2605:e000:1c02:c564:f4bb:ce41:bec9:88e2] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:10 -!- pivo [~pivo@98.128.186.78] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:14 -!- aupiff [~aupiff@IGLD-80-230-170-81.inter.net.il] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:16 -!- shush [~pawn@2605:e000:1c02:c564:f4bb:ce41:bec9:88e2] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 07:17 -!- bitdex [~bitdex@gateway/tor-sasl/bitdex] has quit [Quit: = ""] 07:17 -!- epicfail^ [~epicfail^@195.206.169.238] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:19 -!- aupiff [~aupiff@IGLD-80-230-170-81.inter.net.il] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 07:22 -!- Kiminuo [~mix@141.98.103.148] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] --- Log closed Thu Feb 27 07:23:29 2020 --- Log opened Thu Feb 27 07:23:29 2020 07:30 -!- ayay [6daf62ce@109.175.98.206] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 07:36 -!- aupiff [~aupiff@IGLD-80-230-170-81.inter.net.il] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:37 -!- mauz555 [~mauz555@2a01:e0a:56d:9090:7172:4493:da39:9e7a] has quit [] 07:41 -!- Chris_Stewart_5 [~Chris_Ste@unaffiliated/chris-stewart-5/x-3612383] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds] 07:42 -!- Chris_Stewart_5 [~Chris_Ste@unaffiliated/chris-stewart-5/x-3612383] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:49 -!- shush [~pawn@2607:fb90:f25:90e0:dd45:a88b:5b0e:deaf] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:00 -!- ddustin [~ddustin@unaffiliated/ddustin] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:05 -!- ddustin [~ddustin@unaffiliated/ddustin] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:08 -!- Kiminuo [~mix@141.98.103.148] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:18 -!- pivo 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#bitcoin-wizards 09:17 -!- captjakk [~captjakk@c-65-50-169-164.hs.gigamonster.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:29 -!- shush [~pawn@173.227.31.130] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:30 -!- shush [~pawn@173.227.31.130] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:33 -!- aupiff [~aupiff@IGLD-80-230-170-81.inter.net.il] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 09:36 -!- aupiff [~aupiff@IGLD-80-230-170-81.inter.net.il] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:47 -!- shush [~pawn@173.227.31.130] has quit [] 09:51 -!- aupiff [~aupiff@IGLD-80-230-170-81.inter.net.il] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 09:56 -!- aupiff [~aupiff@IGLD-80-230-170-81.inter.net.il] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:00 -!- epicfail^ [~epicfail^@195.206.169.238] has quit [] 10:06 -!- mauz555 [~mauz555@2a01:e0a:56d:9090:7172:4493:da39:9e7a] has quit [] 10:17 -!- wez [~wez@141.98.101.133] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:21 -!- aupiff [~aupiff@IGLD-80-230-170-81.inter.net.il] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 10:27 -!- aupiff [~aupiff@IGLD-80-230-170-81.inter.net.il] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:32 -!- aupiff [~aupiff@IGLD-80-230-170-81.inter.net.il] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 10:34 < yanmaani> Both of these seem to focus on proof of inclusion mainly 10:34 -!- CryptoDavid [uid14990@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-aaaxphccstvjpdpp] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:36 < yanmaani> re: https://petertodd.org/2016/delayed-txo-commitments#motivation 10:36 < yanmaani> "We don’t have good tools to combat UTXO growth ... For example, timestamping applications often create unspendable outputs due to ease of implementation ... These non-btc-value-transfer use-cases can often afford to pay far higher fees per UTXO created than competing btc-value-transfer use-cases; many users could afford to spend $50 to register a new PGP key, yet would rather not spend $50 in fees 10:36 < yanmaani> to create a standard two output transaction" 10:37 < yanmaani> what about something like a security deposit? 10:37 < yanmaani> Each time you create an UTXO you have to pay X, but each time you destroy an UTXO you also get X. 10:40 -!- mdunnio [~mdunnio@208.59.170.5] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:41 -!- aupiff [~aupiff@IGLD-80-230-170-81.inter.net.il] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:42 -!- Chris_Stewart_5 [~Chris_Ste@unaffiliated/chris-stewart-5/x-3612383] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 10:46 -!- aupiff [~aupiff@IGLD-80-230-170-81.inter.net.il] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 10:47 -!- Chris_Stewart_5 [~Chris_Ste@unaffiliated/chris-stewart-5/x-3612383] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:00 -!- Zenton [~user@unaffiliated/vicenteh] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 11:01 -!- nick_freeman [~nick_free@2001:16b8:301f:1000:19ff:3596:f490:c516] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:06 -!- nick_freeman [~nick_free@2001:16b8:301f:1000:19ff:3596:f490:c516] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds] 11:07 -!- mdunnio [~mdunnio@208.59.170.5] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:21 -!- _whitelogger [~whitelogg@uruz.whitequark.org] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:22 -!- _whitelogger [~whitelogg@uruz.whitequark.org] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:24 -!- aupiff [~aupiff@IGLD-80-230-170-81.inter.net.il] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:29 -!- aupiff [~aupiff@IGLD-80-230-170-81.inter.net.il] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 11:41 -!- nick_freeman [~nick_free@2001:16b8:301f:1000:19ff:3596:f490:c516] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:42 -!- mauz555 [~mauz555@2a01:e0a:56d:9090:7172:4493:da39:9e7a] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:42 -!- nick_fre_ [~nick_free@2001:16b8:301f:1000:a56a:d0bb:6e83:3c94] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:46 -!- nick_freeman [~nick_free@2001:16b8:301f:1000:19ff:3596:f490:c516] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 11:56 -!- captjakk [~captjakk@c-65-50-169-164.hs.gigamonster.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:57 < kanzure> "Remote side-channel attacks on anonymous transactions" https://eprint.iacr.org/2020/220.pdf https://diyhpl.us/wiki/transcripts/stanford-blockchain-conference/2020/linking-anonymous-transactions/ 12:04 -!- captjakk [~captjakk@c-65-50-169-164.hs.gigamonster.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:07 -!- Noldorin [~noldorin@unaffiliated/noldorin] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:08 -!- nuncanada [~dude@191.184.37.164] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:09 -!- Noldorin [~noldorin@unaffiliated/noldorin] has quit [Client Quit] 12:10 -!- nuncanada [~dude@191.184.37.164] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:13 < gleb> Yeah I was bringing up this work here and there. Super cool and creative, but Bitcoin should be fine. Unless it is combined with some other crazy thing like 25-depth CPFP (I don't have an exact scenario). 12:20 -!- Chris_Stewart_5 [~Chris_Ste@unaffiliated/chris-stewart-5/x-3612383] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 12:27 -!- captjakk [~captjakk@c-65-50-169-164.hs.gigamonster.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:29 -!- Emcy [~Emcy@unaffiliated/emcy] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:29 -!- Chris_Stewart_5 [~Chris_Ste@unaffiliated/chris-stewart-5/x-3612383] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:33 -!- captjakk [~captjakk@c-65-50-169-164.hs.gigamonster.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:42 -!- Emcy [~Emcy@unaffiliated/emcy] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:42 -!- Emcy [~Emcy@unaffiliated/emcy] has quit [Client Quit] 12:45 -!- Zenton [~user@unaffiliated/vicenteh] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:56 -!- aupiff [~aupiff@IGLD-80-230-170-81.inter.net.il] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:00 -!- wez [~wez@141.98.101.133] has quit [] 13:01 -!- aupiff [~aupiff@IGLD-80-230-170-81.inter.net.il] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 13:02 -!- Emcy [~Emcy@unaffiliated/emcy] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:15 -!- aupiff [~aupiff@IGLD-80-230-170-81.inter.net.il] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:18 -!- tvn [~tvn@37.120.217.243] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:24 -!- aupiff [~aupiff@IGLD-80-230-170-81.inter.net.il] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 13:26 -!- aupiff [~aupiff@IGLD-80-230-170-81.inter.net.il] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:21 -!- slivera [~slivera@43.245.162.131] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:22 -!- aupiff [~aupiff@IGLD-80-230-170-81.inter.net.il] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 14:33 -!- shush [~pawn@173.227.31.130] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:38 -!- slivera [~slivera@43.245.162.131] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:38 -!- aupiff [~aupiff@IGLD-80-230-170-81.inter.net.il] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:44 -!- aupiff [~aupiff@IGLD-80-230-170-81.inter.net.il] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 15:12 -!- Guyver2 [Guyver@guyver2.xs4all.nl] has quit [Quit: Going offline, see ya! 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