--- Log opened Sun Mar 08 00:00:16 2020 00:21 -!- _whitelogger [~whitelogg@uruz.whitequark.org] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:22 -!- _whitelogger [~whitelogg@uruz.whitequark.org] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:54 -!- yanmaani [~yanmaani@gateway/tor-sasl/m7918070m1/x-47480619] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 01:00 -!- coolacid1 [~coolacid@195.206.183.79] has quit [] 01:07 -!- yanmaani [~yanmaani@gateway/tor-sasl/m7918070m1/x-47480619] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:17 -!- fnichol [~fnichol@195.206.169.238] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:42 -!- _whitelogger [~whitelogg@uruz.whitequark.org] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:43 -!- _whitelogger [~whitelogg@uruz.whitequark.org] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 03:04 -!- TheoStorm [~TheoStorm@host-p8vu8h.cbn1.zeelandnet.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 03:24 -!- snthsnth [~snthsnth@snthhacks.com] has quit [Quit: leaving] 03:24 -!- snthsnth [~snthsnth@snthhacks.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 03:42 -!- marcoagner [~user@bl13-226-166.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 04:10 -!- marcoagner [~user@bl13-226-166.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 04:36 -!- nick_freeman [~nick_free@92.116.186.211] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 04:41 -!- nick_freeman [~nick_free@92.116.186.211] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:46 -!- nick_freeman [~nick_free@2001:16b8:3098:eb00:a845:c160:f356:5842] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 05:00 -!- fnichol [~fnichol@195.206.169.238] has quit [] 05:05 -!- nick_freeman [~nick_free@2001:16b8:3098:eb00:a845:c160:f356:5842] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:14 -!- nick_freeman [~nick_free@92.116.186.211] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 05:20 -!- Wolfy87 [~Wolfy87@184.75.223.219] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 05:33 -!- CryptoDavid [uid14990@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-epvlgtpbmesplfls] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 05:56 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 06:04 -!- nick_freeman [~nick_free@92.116.186.211] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:04 -!- nick_freeman [~nick_free@2001:16b8:3098:eb00:a845:c160:f356:5842] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 06:37 -!- nick_freeman [~nick_free@2001:16b8:3098:eb00:a845:c160:f356:5842] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:41 -!- TheoStorm [~TheoStorm@host-p8vu8h.cbn1.zeelandnet.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 06:53 -!- peterrizzo [~peterrizz@pool-72-88-170-105.nwrknj.fios.verizon.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:20 -!- peterrizzo [~peterrizz@pool-72-88-170-105.nwrknj.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: peterrizzo] 07:27 -!- _whitelogger [~whitelogg@uruz.whitequark.org] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:28 -!- _whitelogger [~whitelogg@uruz.whitequark.org] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:42 -!- CryptoDavid [uid14990@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-epvlgtpbmesplfls] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] 07:43 -!- aupiff [~aupiff@96.224.240.155] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:46 -!- mauz555 [~mauz555@2a01:e0a:56d:9090:3092:7169:2a22:9e8d] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:00 -!- Wolfy87 [~Wolfy87@184.75.223.219] has quit [] 08:20 -!- weez17 [~isaac@unaffiliated/weez17] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 08:21 -!- dvratil [~dvratil@37.120.217.243] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:42 -!- jimmysong [~jimmysong@65-36-83-142.static.grandenetworks.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:42 -!- mauz555 [~mauz555@2a01:e0a:56d:9090:3092:7169:2a22:9e8d] has quit [] 08:44 -!- nick_freeman [~nick_free@2001:16b8:3098:eb00:a845:c160:f356:5842] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:44 -!- nick_fre_ [~nick_free@2001:16b8:3098:eb00:b436:7a9a:d83:587a] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:45 -!- peterrizzo [~peterrizz@pool-72-88-170-105.nwrknj.fios.verizon.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:48 -!- nick_freeman [~nick_free@2001:16b8:3098:eb00:a845:c160:f356:5842] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 08:51 -!- francisco_______ [uid418144@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-mabornbmnkinpgpj] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] 08:58 -!- Guyver2 [Guyver@guyver2.xs4all.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:05 -!- willcl_ark_ [~quassel@95.211.225.220] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:11 -!- nick_fre_ [~nick_free@2001:16b8:3098:eb00:b436:7a9a:d83:587a] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:12 -!- nick_freeman [~nick_free@2001:16b8:3098:eb00:b436:7a9a:d83:587a] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:12 -!- willcl_ark_ [~quassel@95.211.225.220] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:16 -!- nick_freeman [~nick_free@2001:16b8:3098:eb00:b436:7a9a:d83:587a] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:16 -!- nick_freeman [~nick_free@92.116.186.211] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:19 -!- peterrizzo [~peterrizz@pool-72-88-170-105.nwrknj.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: peterrizzo] 09:20 -!- TheoStorm [~TheoStorm@host-p8vu8h.cbn1.zeelandnet.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:20 -!- Dean_Guss [~dean@gateway/tor-sasl/deanguss] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:20 -!- masterP [~paul@173.213.88.45] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:24 -!- nick_freeman [~nick_free@92.116.186.211] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:27 -!- nick_freeman [~nick_free@2001:16b8:3098:eb00:b436:7a9a:d83:587a] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:28 -!- Guyver2_ [Guyver@guyver2.xs4all.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:29 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:31 -!- Guyver2 [Guyver@guyver2.xs4all.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:36 -!- peterrizzo [~peterrizz@pool-72-88-170-105.nwrknj.fios.verizon.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:53 -!- peterrizzo [~peterrizz@pool-72-88-170-105.nwrknj.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: peterrizzo] 09:53 -!- nick_freeman [~nick_free@2001:16b8:3098:eb00:b436:7a9a:d83:587a] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:13 -!- wullon5 [~wullon@241.243.86.88.rdns.comcable.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:16 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:18 -!- TheoStorm [~TheoStorm@host-p8vu8h.cbn1.zeelandnet.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 10:24 -!- aupiff [~aupiff@96.224.240.155] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 10:33 -!- captjakk [~captjakk@107-145-175-198.res.spectrum.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:00 -!- dvratil [~dvratil@37.120.217.243] has quit [] 11:00 -!- wullon5 [~wullon@241.243.86.88.rdns.comcable.net] has quit [Quit: The Lounge - https://thelounge.chat] 11:00 -!- wullon5 [~wullon@241.243.86.88.rdns.comcable.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:00 -!- wullon5 [~wullon@241.243.86.88.rdns.comcable.net] has quit [Client Quit] 11:01 -!- wullon5 [~wullon@241.243.86.88.rdns.comcable.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:01 -!- wullon5 [~wullon@241.243.86.88.rdns.comcable.net] has quit [Client Quit] 11:02 -!- wullon5 [~wullon@241.243.86.88.rdns.comcable.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:02 -!- wullon5 is now known as wullon 11:15 -!- nick_freeman [~nick_free@92.116.186.211] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:20 -!- Darki [~Darki@141.98.101.133] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:20 -!- Darki is now known as Guest23178 11:21 -!- Kiminuo [~mix@141.98.103.196] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:34 -!- nick_freeman [~nick_free@92.116.186.211] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:35 -!- Dean_Guss [~dean@gateway/tor-sasl/deanguss] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:39 -!- nick_freeman [~nick_free@2001:16b8:3098:eb00:59f:9ecf:2a28:dca8] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:44 -!- nick_freeman [~nick_free@2001:16b8:3098:eb00:59f:9ecf:2a28:dca8] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:47 -!- nick_freeman [~nick_free@2001:16b8:3098:eb00:59f:9ecf:2a28:dca8] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:56 -!- nick_freeman [~nick_free@2001:16b8:3098:eb00:59f:9ecf:2a28:dca8] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:57 -!- pinheadmz [~matthewzi@8.46.73.186] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:59 -!- pinheadmz [~matthewzi@8.46.73.186] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:59 -!- pinheadmz_ [~matthewzi@131.255.4.84] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:02 -!- nick_freeman [~nick_free@2001:16b8:3098:eb00:59f:9ecf:2a28:dca8] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:05 -!- nick_freeman [~nick_free@2001:16b8:3098:eb00:59f:9ecf:2a28:dca8] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:06 -!- nick_freeman [~nick_free@2001:16b8:3098:eb00:59f:9ecf:2a28:dca8] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:08 -!- peterrizzo [~peterrizz@pool-72-88-170-105.nwrknj.fios.verizon.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:14 -!- pinheadmz_ [~matthewzi@131.255.4.84] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:15 -!- peterrizzo [~peterrizz@pool-72-88-170-105.nwrknj.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: peterrizzo] 12:16 -!- captjakk [~captjakk@107-145-175-198.res.spectrum.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:16 -!- captjakk [~captjakk@107-145-175-198.res.spectrum.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:18 -!- smk [c7e5f9c8@unaffiliated/smk] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:20 -!- captjakk [~captjakk@107-145-175-198.res.spectrum.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 12:21 -!- pinheadmz [~matthewzi@184.75.212.188] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:31 -!- pinheadmz [~matthewzi@184.75.212.188] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:38 -!- smk [c7e5f9c8@unaffiliated/smk] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 12:41 -!- Guyver2__ [Guyver@guyver2.xs4all.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:44 -!- Guyver2_ [Guyver@guyver2.xs4all.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 13:18 -!- Dean_Guss [~dean@gateway/tor-sasl/deanguss] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:26 -!- slivera [~slivera@116.206.228.243] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:28 -!- McMurdo [~McMurdo@gateway/tor-sasl/mcmurdo] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:00 -!- Guest23178 [~Darki@141.98.101.133] has quit [] 14:08 -!- McMurdo [~McMurdo@gateway/tor-sasl/mcmurdo] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:12 -!- luke-jr [~luke-jr@unaffiliated/luke-jr] has quit [Quit: ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net] 14:14 -!- luke-jr [~luke-jr@unaffiliated/luke-jr] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:14 -!- McMurdo [~McMurdo@gateway/tor-sasl/mcmurdo] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:21 -!- oniijin [~oniijin@195.206.183.79] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:23 -!- McMurdo [~McMurdo@gateway/tor-sasl/mcmurdo] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 14:29 -!- justanotheruser [~justanoth@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:51 -!- Dean_Guss [~dean@gateway/tor-sasl/deanguss] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 15:04 -!- slivera [~slivera@116.206.228.243] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:05 -!- Chex [sss@sleepl.northnook.ca] has quit [Quit: So long and thanks for all the fish! Hardy upgrade in progress.] 15:25 -!- Guyver2__ [Guyver@guyver2.xs4all.nl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:26 -!- sarahc0nn0r [90d92d2e@ip46.ip-144-217-45.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 15:26 -!- jonatack [~jon@2a01:e0a:53c:a200:bb54:3be5:c3d0:9ce5] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:35 -!- jimmysong [~jimmysong@65-36-83-142.static.grandenetworks.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:50 < sarahc0nn0r> Hey everyone, in keeping with the tradition set by Grin, I figured I’d post the paper for my new project here under a pseudonym. I’ve been working on it for over a year now, so I think it’s ready for you all to review. I call it “The Ultranet” and it’s a censorship-resistant private marketplace that’s fully-decentralized like Bitcoin. 15:50 < sarahc0nn0r> Among other things, I introduce a concept in the paper I call a “block pool” that has the ability to store “heavy-weight” data like images without bloating the blockchain or compromising censorship-resistance compared to Bitcoin. It also allows for the seamless exchange of Bitcoin for Ultra through a form of atomic swap I call 15:50 < sarahc0nn0r> “interchange”. Altogether, it’s basically a marketplace like Craigslist only where listings can’t be taken down, where all activity is end-to-end encrypted, and where all data will be preserved as long as a single node somewhere in the world is running the software. 15:50 < sarahc0nn0r> The paper that explains how it works in detail: http://ultranet.one/white_paper_english.pdfWebsite where you can try the in-browser demo or download the desktop client: http://ultranet.oneFully open-source Git repo: https://github.com/sarahc0nn0r/ultranet 15:51 < sarahc0nn0r> The paper that explains how it works in detail: http://ultranet.one/white_paper_english.pdf 15:51 < sarahc0nn0r> Website where you can try the in-browser demo or download the desktop client: http://ultranet.one 15:51 < sarahc0nn0r> Fully open-source Git repo: https://github.com/sarahc0nn0r/ultranet 15:51 < sarahc0nn0r> Sorry for the formatting 15:52 < sarahc0nn0r> What do you guys think? 15:53 -!- TheoStorm [~TheoStorm@188.95.55.79] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 15:54 < gleb> sarahc0nn0r: altcoins are off-topic here. 15:57 < sarahc0nn0r> gleb my main aim is to get feedback on the technical aspects of the system, which seems in-line with discussing "theoretical ideas with regard to cryptocurrencies" 15:57 -!- TheoStorm [~TheoStorm@188.95.55.79] has quit [Client Quit] 15:59 < Dean_Guss> sarahc0nn0r: how about a 301 redirect to https:// and a working site without javascript on ultranet.one? 16:01 < Dean_Guss> can't speak for others but I don't appreciate having to run JS, and especially not via naked http:// 16:01 -!- captjakk [~captjakk@107-145-175-198.res.spectrum.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:02 < sarahc0nn0r> Dean_Guss you can probably tell I'm not a web developer. That being said, http is fine in this case since there's no sensitive information and it's not really possible to run the demo without JS. 16:02 -!- captjakk [~captjakk@107-145-175-198.res.spectrum.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:03 -!- captjakk [~captjakk@107-145-175-198.res.spectrum.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:04 < Dean_Guss> that means if I try to use your site through tor any exit node can inject any js they want. Pretty ridiculous to have a "private marketplace" not be safe to run over tor. 16:05 -!- TheoStorm [~TheoStorm@host-p8vu8h.cbn1.zeelandnet.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:06 < sarahc0nn0r> Dean_Guss, I apologize sincerely for being too lazy to get a certificate for the site and set it up. I don 16:06 < sarahc0nn0r> I don't disagree it's suboptimal, but could I ask you to please focus on the technical aspects of the system and what you think about it? 16:08 -!- captjakk [~captjakk@107-145-175-198.res.spectrum.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 16:11 -!- ddustin [~ddustin@unaffiliated/ddustin] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:12 < sarahc0nn0r> Btw Dean_Guss, note that the website is just a place to read about the app and download it, which is why I was lazy about it. 16:16 < Dean_Guss> I thought maybe I could get some technical info there without reading the whitepaper. I guess not. I might take a look at the paper later. the project sounds interesting based on what is on github. I hope a new era of decentralized markets are born, that would be great for everybody. 16:17 < sarahc0nn0r> Yeah, sorry about that; the site is written for lay people like buyers and merchants. I think you'll enjoy the paper though if you have time to check it out. 16:18 -!- TheoStorm [~TheoStorm@host-p8vu8h.cbn1.zeelandnet.nl] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:19 < sarahc0nn0r> For convenience: http://ultranet.one/white_paper_english.pdf 16:20 < Dean_Guss> you should post it on dread if you really want people to look into it 16:27 < sarahc0nn0r> Dean_Guss I considered it before but I want to wait until a little later to do that. Worried if we attract too many anarchists initially we’ll alienate a lot of normal people who would otherwise have supported it. I think there’s a lot of potential for normal people to support this overall if we’re careful with it, in the same way Satoshi was 16:27 < sarahc0nn0r> careful with Bitcoin early on. What do you think of that? 16:28 < Dean_Guss> Probably not a bad tack 16:36 -!- captjakk [~captjakk@107-145-175-198.res.spectrum.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:36 -!- CryptoDavid [uid14990@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-hnsgpcxlcjvkhwqi] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:36 -!- nirved [~nirved@2a02:8071:b58a:3c00:3ca6:9fb9:2e23:4e12] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:37 < yanmaani> sarahc0nn0r: Why not just use Usenet/NNTP for this? It seems like double-spending becomes a red herring. 16:43 < yanmaani> There are some other strange quirks as well 16:43 < yanmaani> ""we have configured the software to send 1% of a buyer’s purchase price to the person who referred that buyer, which is intended to incentivize third-parties to promote the software" 16:44 < yanmaani> Won't people just put in their own key as a ref link? It would cut their fees by 25% 16:45 < yanmaani> More importantly, how does the 20% discount work? 16:45 < yanmaani> Does the referrer pay? Does the merchant pay? Does it create additional coins? 16:48 < yanmaani> Are reviews anonymous? It doesn't seem like that in this paper. That is quite bad. 16:50 < yanmaani> To be exceedingly blunt here, we all know precisely what people these projects attract and what they are going to use it for. Against this backdrop, it seems like a horrible idea to make everything public. 16:52 < yanmaani> Are there any absolute guarantees for refunds? Or just that the merchant is incentivized because reputation etc etc? 16:52 < yanmaani> If so, exit scams seem like they would cause lots of trouble 16:53 -!- justanotheruser [~justanoth@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:55 < yanmaani> OK, so there's a section about this. But it seems like the value of a merchant account will equal the burned fees 16:55 < yanmaani> if you're a serious merchant turning a profit, and you want to exit-scam, nothing stops you from doing this and burning your reputation 16:56 < yanmaani> Paul Sztorc had a smart idea in this regard; reputation is a transferable token. This means that miners could do "legalized exit scams" by just selling all of their rep. 16:56 < yanmaani> This obviously does not hurt the customers. 17:00 -!- oniijin [~oniijin@195.206.183.79] has quit [] 17:01 < yanmaani> Also, I am unsure whether negative reputation would be a very good incentive. On *ahem* traditional markets, a vendor bond of $200, a fee of 4%, a yearly gross revenue of $1 million, and an average order time of 1 week may be common. 17:01 < sarahc0nn0r> yanmaani the exit scam prevention is discussed in the paper in detail and is pretty robust in the sense that it’s uneconomical to do one as long as users don’t buy from merchants with negative reputation. 17:01 < yanmaani> This means on average there will be $19k in flight at any given time (1m / 52) 17:02 < sarahc0nn0r> yanmaani, what is the issue in your view with review text being public? It's pseudo-anonymous like transactions in Bitcoin and the paper discusses in detail why this is safe for the average user. 17:03 < yanmaani> On the first $100k will be collected $4k in fees for example. With vendor bond of 200 and additional funds needed to put it at $19k, the total volume will have to reach (19230-200)/0.04 = $475k 17:03 < yanmaani> So the first half a year the vendor will be at negative rep. 17:04 < yanmaani> With traditional markets this is no problem, as they have escrow system and prohibit FE. But here? I am unsure 17:05 < yanmaani> sarahc0nn0r: Well they will. The vendor bond will have to be extreme, since all your transactions are going to be FE 17:05 < sarahc0nn0r> yanmaani, it's a good point that merchants will generally need to "warm up" to being able to have a large "in-flight" capacity without going negative. That being said, does this seem like a major problem to you? 17:05 < yanmaani> Well, the result will either be that nobody uses it or that people trade with negative rep. 17:06 < sarahc0nn0r> Yeah, it seems like the reputable merchants will get away with negative rep initially since people know who they are by their public key. 17:07 < sarahc0nn0r> That being said, it seems all of this is moot to the extent that traditional marketplaces are constantly going down whereas the Ultranet will retain your reputation forever. 17:07 < yanmaani> I mean a normal escrow system would just solve this. This is how normal markets do it. 17:07 < sarahc0nn0r> As in if you're willing to warm up on the Ultranet, you'll never have to deal with another market again. 17:07 < yanmaani> "Traditional marketplaces" have already attempted to deal with this by using 2-of-3 multisig 17:08 < yanmaani> well the sellers go where the buyers are, and the buyers are where the sellers are. You still have netowrk effects so it does not seem so convincing 17:08 < yanmaani> If everything is public, what is the upside over just using regular forum posts? 17:08 < kanzure> yanmaani: is there any insightful progress here on reputation systems or is this just an altcoin that needs to be kicked from the channel? 17:09 < yanmaani> kanzure: Read the paper, I am not going to suggest anyone be kicked. 17:09 < kanzure> whitepaper looks like mostly filler. on that basis i'm inclined to kick. 17:10 < sarahc0nn0r> kanzure, I think if you read the section on "How Merchant Reputation Works" it will answer your question. 17:10 < yanmaani> It is verbose, I suppose? 17:10 < yanmaani> sarahc0nn0r: how does the 20% discount work? 17:11 < sarahc0nn0r> yanmaani, it's a bit of a "bootstrapping" feature. Basically when you use the app it shows you "price merchant set"+20%, but then when you actually create an account it shows you the actual prices (regardless of whether or not you enter the public key of your referrer) 17:11 < sarahc0nn0r> You can see it if you check out the demo on the site: http://ultranet.one 17:12 -!- captjakk [~captjakk@107-145-175-198.res.spectrum.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:12 < yanmaani> Yeah but isn't this just dishonest? Why would I use someone else's reflink when I could just use my own? 17:12 -!- captjakk [~captjakk@107-145-175-198.res.spectrum.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 17:12 < yanmaani> it's no better than random websites which show you prices and then multiply them by rand(1.2, 1.8) and show "50% off" 17:12 < sarahc0nn0r> You can. You can also just not enter one, which has the same effect (it just says "ok, you're going to get the 20% discount regardless") 17:13 < yanmaani> Is there any way to pay the inflated price? 17:13 < sarahc0nn0r> That's why I said it's a bit of a bootstrapping feature. It just gives people who tell their friends about it some motivation to get them to use it. Namely "hey if you enter my key you can get 20% off." 17:13 < sarahc0nn0r> Without needing a centralized entity to enforce anything. 17:13 < yanmaani> By "bootstrapping feature," do you mean "lie"? 17:13 < sarahc0nn0r> No, it's basically impossible to ever pay the inflated price. 17:14 < yanmaani> Is it theoretically possible to do it? Or is it just for show? 17:14 < sarahc0nn0r> It's not possible to pay the inflated price. 17:14 < sarahc0nn0r> If you don't enter a referrer key, it still gives you the discount. 17:15 < sarahc0nn0r> It's just an implementation detail honestly; I wouldn't fixate on it. 17:15 < yanmaani> Isn't it just a lie then? If I tell my friends that they get 20% off if they use my key, this is not true. 17:16 < yanmaani> I mean, I hate to be that guy, but the dictionary definition of a lie is, "a false statement made with deliberate intent to deceive" 17:16 < sarahc0nn0r> Well, it's true that entering your key will give them the discount. It's also true that they could also get it by pushing through the UI without a key. But again all of this is just implementation detail not actual technological improvement, which is what I'm seeking feedback on. 17:17 < yanmaani> Their incentive to use my key is the 20% discount, which supposedly compensates for the 1% fee they pay back to me. But if the discount does not exist, then they are just lying to me - they have no good reason to give me the money 17:17 -!- captjakk [~captjakk@107-145-175-198.res.spectrum.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 17:17 < yanmaani> My honest feedback is that this does not solve a problem people have. On traditional marketplaces, there is a good amount of safety for customers 17:17 < yanmaani> As well as vendors 17:18 < yanmaani> Vendors can set it to automatically withdraw, and it's possible to use 2-of-3 multisig for escrow 17:18 < sarahc0nn0r> I appreciate that. What do you think of the ciriticsm that traditional marketplaces are constantly being shut down? 17:18 < yanmaani> If they would use 2-of-3 multisig it would not be a problem. It would also not be a problem if they did legitimate business. 17:19 < yanmaani> from a purely practical POV, the UX here is already dreadful (download TBB, buy Bitcoins) 17:19 < yanmaani> making this even worse (download blockchain, allocate 25 gb, buy bitcoins, buy ultra) will not be good for adoption 17:20 < yanmaani> The incentives just aren't in place. Why not just use a regular forum? 17:20 < yanmaani> The advantages of standard markets over random phpBB forums is that you get escrow, anonymous reviews, and curation 17:20 < yanmaani> if you don't get any of this but still pay 4% fees to enrich random holders of a cryptocurrency 17:20 < yanmaani> why bother? 17:22 -!- albertlast1 [~albertlas@176.113.74.179] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 17:22 < sarahc0nn0r> yanmaani the core value proposition is that it can’t be shut down and the data, in particular the reputation data, will therefore never be lost. Along these lines, it seems like even if the UI is equal (IMO it’s quite a bit better but say it’s equal for argument’s sake), it seems like eventually, as other markets get shut down, the 17:22 < sarahc0nn0r> community will slowly aggregate onto this platform. But I’m honestly curious what you think about this dynamic. Thanks for the feedback overall btw. 17:22 < yanmaani> also where does it explain how it is a good idea to give linkable reviews? Letting a vendor who has a buyer's personal info see the buyer's other purchases is a poor value proposition 17:23 < yanmaani> fundamentally, a marketplace with buyers but no sellers will attract sellers to a greater degree than a marketplace with sellers but no buyers; sellers are willing to jump through more hoops as they do it on an industrial scale 17:23 < yanmaani> (the reputational data decays, so this seems rather flawed) 17:24 -!- meshcollider [meshcollid@gateway/shell/ircnow/x-lchfnzrylmfjnacc] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 17:24 < yanmaani> (If you'd make it so that burnt reputation is a token that can be traded and does not decay, then you might have something.) 17:24 < sarahc0nn0r> Sure, but the argument is that the buyers *and* sellers will aggregate as traditional markets get shut down over time. 17:24 < yanmaani> so, sellers use TAILS and complicated money laundering schemes; buyers send straight from exchange to market using onion.to 17:25 < sarahc0nn0r> Interesting. Could you elaborate on your thoughts on the tradable reputation component? 17:25 < yanmaani> yeah but the UX is not so good. There are no hard guarantees for the buyer not to get ripped off. 17:25 -!- TheoStorm [~TheoStorm@host-p8vu8h.cbn1.zeelandnet.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 17:25 < yanmaani> Traditional marketplaces put a lot of effort into this 17:25 < yanmaani> Banning FE, ensuring escrow is always used, vendor bonds, active policing, having support chat 17:26 < yanmaani> here, this is replaced with "dude game theory lmao". I am not convinced 17:26 < yanmaani> sarahc0nn0r: yeah so if a vendor has reputation that he had to spend $1000 in fees to get 17:26 < yanmaani> this means he can safely exit scam $1000 worth of orders while still having a positive rep 17:26 < sarahc0nn0r> So it seems like you're saying that if the traditional marketplaces are shut down, leaving no alternative, they will use the Ultranet but then go back to the first traditional marketplace that comes online, even if the UI is equivalent? 17:27 < yanmaani> so he has the choice between exit scam (hurting buyer confidence) and no exit scam (costing him $1000) 17:27 < sarahc0nn0r> Just trying to make sure I understand 17:27 < yanmaani> thus he is more or less forced to exit scam 17:27 < yanmaani> whereas if he could sell his rep, he'd have two choices; exit scam or sale 17:27 < yanmaani> the latter would earn him a strictly greater amount of money, be more honorable, and attract less scrutiny 17:27 < yanmaani> thus it should dominate 17:28 < yanmaani> sarahc0nn0r: Well, except for the part where they will never use the Ultranet. 17:28 < yanmaani> There has not ever been a case when there are zero marketplaces out there. 17:29 < yanmaani> If you want something interesting, look at the Nash equilibrium market ideas. And Paul Sztorc's suggestions for making REP tradeable. 17:30 < yanmaani> so the UI is not equivalent; users want good assurances they are dealing with serious professional people 17:30 < yanmaani> in retail markets like ebay/paypal, we see this clearly: payment processors and merchants bend over backwards to satisfy customers 17:30 < kanzure> has hanson or sztorc ever put together a functioning WoT reputation market or prediction market? 17:30 < yanmaani> since "please send your money here and you might get something if you are lucky" will not be a very good business proposal 17:30 < yanmaani> kanzure: sztorc has put together some code 17:31 < sarahc0nn0r> yanmaani it seems we disagree about the state of traditional marketplaces. In my view there have been many instances in the past few years when the alternatives were virtually zero. But I understand this is not something that's easy to come to consensus on, and I appreciate your side of the argument. 17:31 < yanmaani> hanson has made one I think but play money only 17:31 -!- TheoStorm [~TheoStorm@host-p8vu8h.cbn1.zeelandnet.nl] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 17:31 < yanmaani> sarahc0nn0r: Look at India marketplace I think it was called; they had 2-of-3 multisig. They still exit scammed with the like $5000 of custodial money. But in theory that system works. 17:36 -!- zmnscpxj [~zmnscpxj@gateway/tor-sasl/zmnscpxj] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 17:40 < yanmaani> sarahc0nn0r: see here about reputation https://www.truthcoin.info/papers/truthcoin-whitepaper.pdf 17:41 -!- DeanWeen [~dean@gateway/tor-sasl/deanguss] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 17:42 < sarahc0nn0r> Taking a look now. I'll dig into the India Marketplace as well and see what they were doing. Other than the "warm up" period, though, was there anything you saw that would be problematic about the current reputation scheme though? 17:42 < sarahc0nn0r> Appreciate the feedback overall yanmaani 17:43 < sarahc0nn0r> Also still interested in feedback if anyone else has any: http://ultranet.one/white_paper_english.pdf 17:45 -!- Dean_Guss [~dean@gateway/tor-sasl/deanguss] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:47 -!- DeanWeen [~dean@gateway/tor-sasl/deanguss] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 17:53 -!- justanotheruser [~justanoth@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 17:56 -!- meshcollider [meshcollid@gateway/shell/ircnow/x-wkegzpjokkujabmz] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 18:01 -!- brianhoffman [~brianhoff@pool-96-240-138-69.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:06 -!- ddustin [~ddustin@unaffiliated/ddustin] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:06 -!- ddustin [~ddustin@unaffiliated/ddustin] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 18:11 -!- ddustin [~ddustin@unaffiliated/ddustin] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 18:17 -!- DeanWeen [~dean@gateway/tor-sasl/deanguss] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 18:25 -!- zmnscpxj [~zmnscpxj@gateway/tor-sasl/zmnscpxj] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:26 -!- pinheadmz [~matthewzi@pool-100-33-69-78.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 18:38 -!- pinheadmz [~matthewzi@pool-100-33-69-78.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: pinheadmz] 18:40 -!- DeanWeen [~dean@gateway/tor-sasl/deanguss] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 18:46 -!- zmnscpxj [~zmnscpxj@gateway/tor-sasl/zmnscpxj] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 18:49 -!- jimmysong [~jimmysong@65-36-83-142.static.grandenetworks.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 18:52 -!- shush [~pawn@2605:e000:1c02:c564:20da:b897:6ef4:50a0] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 18:56 -!- shush [~pawn@2605:e000:1c02:c564:20da:b897:6ef4:50a0] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:06 -!- luke-jr [~luke-jr@unaffiliated/luke-jr] has quit [Quit: ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net] 19:08 -!- luke-jr [~luke-jr@unaffiliated/luke-jr] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 19:16 -!- jimmysong [~jimmysong@65-36-83-142.static.grandenetworks.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 19:24 -!- nick_freeman [~nick_free@2001:16b8:3098:eb00:59f:9ecf:2a28:dca8] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:24 -!- nick_freeman [~nick_free@2001:16b8:3098:eb00:59f:9ecf:2a28:dca8] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 19:28 -!- nick_freeman [~nick_free@2001:16b8:3098:eb00:59f:9ecf:2a28:dca8] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 19:58 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:00 -!- albertlast1 [~albertlas@176.113.74.179] has quit [] 20:05 -!- nick_freeman [~nick_free@2001:16b8:30d9:6900:40dc:3947:f804:4d1e] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 20:09 -!- Belkaar [~Belkaar@unaffiliated/belkaar] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds] 20:10 -!- Belkaar [~Belkaar@xdsl-89-0-110-235.nc.de] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 20:10 -!- Belkaar [~Belkaar@xdsl-89-0-110-235.nc.de] has quit [Changing host] 20:10 -!- Belkaar [~Belkaar@unaffiliated/belkaar] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 20:14 -!- nick_freeman [~nick_free@2001:16b8:30d9:6900:40dc:3947:f804:4d1e] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:19 -!- nick_freeman [~nick_free@2001:16b8:30d9:6900:40dc:3947:f804:4d1e] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 20:22 -!- binwiederhier1 [~binwieder@141.98.101.133] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 20:25 -!- nick_freeman [~nick_free@2001:16b8:30d9:6900:40dc:3947:f804:4d1e] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 20:36 -!- _whitelogger [~whitelogg@uruz.whitequark.org] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:36 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 20:37 -!- _whitelogger [~whitelogg@uruz.whitequark.org] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 20:40 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 20:52 -!- aupiff [~aupiff@172.58.227.218] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 20:56 -!- nick_freeman [~nick_free@2001:16b8:30d9:6900:40dc:3947:f804:4d1e] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 21:00 -!- nick_freeman [~nick_free@2001:16b8:30d9:6900:40dc:3947:f804:4d1e] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:09 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 21:09 -!- aupiff [~aupiff@172.58.227.218] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 21:38 -!- justanotheruser [~justanoth@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 21:41 -!- sarahc0nn0r [90d92d2e@ip46.ip-144-217-45.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:42 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 21:56 -!- justanotheruser [~justanoth@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 21:56 -!- justanotheruser [~justanoth@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:58 -!- justanotheruser [~justanoth@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 22:03 -!- justanotheruser [~justanoth@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 22:05 -!- alferz [~alferz@unaffiliated/alfer] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 22:06 -!- DeanWeen [~dean@gateway/tor-sasl/deanguss] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 22:16 -!- alferz [~alferz@unaffiliated/alfer] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 22:17 -!- justanotheruser [~justanoth@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 22:19 -!- achow101 [~achow101@unaffiliated/achow101] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 22:23 -!- achow101 [~achow101@unaffiliated/achow101] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 22:56 -!- orange_ [~textual@92.223.89.134] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 22:57 -!- shush [~pawn@2605:e000:1c02:c564:20da:b897:6ef4:50a0] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 23:00 -!- binwiederhier1 [~binwieder@141.98.101.133] has quit [] 23:01 -!- shush [~pawn@2605:e000:1c02:c564:20da:b897:6ef4:50a0] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:02 -!- CryptoDavid [uid14990@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-hnsgpcxlcjvkhwqi] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] 23:10 -!- nick_freeman [~nick_free@2001:16b8:30d9:6900:40dc:3947:f804:4d1e] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 23:15 -!- nick_freeman [~nick_free@2001:16b8:30d9:6900:40dc:3947:f804:4d1e] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 23:15 -!- nick_freeman [~nick_free@2001:16b8:30d9:6900:40dc:3947:f804:4d1e] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 23:20 -!- gingerling [~gingerlin@184.75.223.219] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 23:25 -!- nick_freeman [~nick_free@2001:16b8:30d9:6900:40dc:3947:f804:4d1e] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 23:30 -!- zmnscpxj [~zmnscpxj@gateway/tor-sasl/zmnscpxj] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:39 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 23:45 -!- nick_freeman [~nick_free@2001:16b8:30d9:6900:40dc:3947:f804:4d1e] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 23:50 -!- francisco_______ [uid418144@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ssnfqsfgunhxkcwn] has joined #bitcoin-wizards --- Log closed Mon Mar 09 00:00:17 2020