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17:03 < yanmaani> What secures bitcoin against cartel formation? Why can't a 51% cartel of miners conspire to fix the hashrate?
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17:04 < yanmaani> "We have to mine 70% of blocks and we will do it at X H/s, the rest of you get 30%; if you breach your quotas we'll orphan your blocks"
17:12 < sipa> yanmaani: the fact that anyone can add hashrate
17:12 < sipa> it's weak protection, but it's literally why mining exists in the first place (as opposed to some fixed voting power to fixed actors, BFT style)
17:13 < yanmaani> Yeah, but what prevents established miners from just ignoring it?
17:14 < yanmaani> This was very close to happening in Bitcoin Cash. "Pay 25% of block rewards into our fund or we'll orphan your blocks."
17:14 < pinheadmz> a 51% cartel would probably only mine 51% of the blocks. I don't know if they could enforce this rule.
17:14 < sipa> yanmaani: the rest of the world can add more hashrate than the cartel
17:14 < sipa> in theory
17:15 < yanmaani> Well, what if the cartel is sufficiently large?
17:16 < yanmaani> I mean the only reason this didn't happen in BCH was because it looked atrocious and people complained.
17:17 < sipa> if sufficiently disliked, the full node ecosystem can also resort to last resort measures like changing the PoW function
17:18 < sipa> i don't think that's a solution to this problem per se
17:18 < sipa> but it may act as a disincentive to do completely crazy things as cartel
17:18 < yanmaani> Sure, using PoW functions which are elastic, like CPU-bound, alleviates it to some degree.
17:18 < midnight> There's no such thing as a CPU-bound algorithm.
17:19 < yanmaani> what, what's the nice name for it then
17:19 < midnight> "Temporary setback in hashrate efficiency"?
17:19 < midnight> :-)
17:19 < aj> i think it's also easy for members of the cartel to anonymously defect, if the remaining cartel controls 40% of hashpower, they won't regain control but will waste some time before realising they're not just unlucky, while the defector potentially gains at their expense
17:20 < yanmaani> "algorithms for which it does not offer a sufficiently significant so as for it to be profitable profit to furnish for the construction of application-specific integrated circuits in order to complete the algorithm"
17:20 < yanmaani> aj: What if the cartel pays itself?
17:20 < yanmaani> So you say that people who aren't members of the cartel can mine, but they have to give 50% of their rewards to the cartel.
17:20 < yanmaani> or get orphaned.
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17:21 < aj> yanmaani: if the cartel can't enforce what they say, it doesn't matter what they say
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17:21 < yanmaani> If they have 51%, I mean.
17:21 < yanmaani> Then why would you defect?
17:22 < midnight> yanmaani: No, seriously. There's no such thing.
17:22 < yanmaani> You can either be part of the cartel and earn block reward + non-cartel*haircut*block reward, or defect and earn block reward*(1-haircut)
17:22 < yanmaani> midnight: What about randomX and friends?
17:22 < aj> yanmaani: the cartel's made up of alice, bob, carol and dave, each with 15% hashpower, for a total of 60%. carol defects, leaving the cartel with 45% of hashpower, eg
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17:23 < yanmaani> For such algorithms, the optimal ASIC (in theory) is a CPU.
17:23 < yanmaani> aj: Why would Carol defect?
17:24 < yanmaani> (.15/.60) * .4 * haircut + .15 > .15
17:24 < aj> .15/60 < .15/55 though
17:25 < yanmaani> Yeah, the cartel has to be as small as possible. It's sort of funny.
17:25 < yanmaani> If everyone is in on it, no profit.
17:25 < yanmaani> If 49% are in on it, no profit
17:25 < yanmaani> If 51% are in, max profit
17:25 < yanmaani> and it's just declining from there
17:26 < yanmaani> So it's very unstable: you might imagine a scenario where it devolves into a pyramid scheme
17:26 < pinheadmz> again a 51% cartel maybe finds every other block. They'd be attempting to orphan the 49% of blocks all the time. wouldnt it be more profitable just to extend the chain?
17:26 < pinheadmz> Not to mention, keep Bitcoin valuable so they can pay their electric bill
17:26 < yanmaani> 70% agree to steal 50% from 30%. Then 4/7 (40% of tot, 57% of cartel) steal 50% of 50% of 30% from them.
17:27 < yanmaani> pinheadmz: No, because they demand the non-cartel members pay them half their rewards.
17:27 < yanmaani> Miners can't affect the price in any meaningful manner; if they could they could just front-run themselves.
17:27 < yanmaani> So short at 100x, make announcement, collect profits.
17:28 < midnight> yanmaani: All ASIC-resistance is a temporary measure that will basically instantly fail at any significant scale, even if it's just a reliance on Intel's crushing economies of scale and stuffing their CPUs into machines that end-users will never be able to acquire at any scale; but this theoretical Universe doesn't exist.
17:29 < midnight> Ehh..  this isn't really the place for this. Recommend you redirect to #bitcoin.
17:29 < yanmaani> What do you mean midnight? If Intel makes nice Xeons for mining, those are roughly the same as buying a lot of retail CPUs.
17:29 < yanmaani> Well it's generally about blockchain incentives no?
17:30 < sipa> i think things like proofs of space&time have a better chance of being ASIC-resistance
17:30 < yanmaani> Is the cartel talk off-topic?
17:30 < yanmaani> like the haircut cartel
17:30 < sipa> *ASIC-resistant
17:30 < yanmaani> (and I don't mean barbers meeting in smoke-filled rooms)
17:30  * midnight pictures endless DIMM banks
17:30  * midnight shudders
17:30 < sipa> midnight: is that a comment on proofs of space&time?
17:31 < yanmaani> midnight: Depending on how it's structured, it's no problem.
17:31 < yanmaani> schematically, you could imagine the following
17:31 < yanmaani> RAM is 200x faster than SSDs and 200x more expensive on a $/GB basis
17:31 < yanmaani> SSD is 10x faster and 10x more expensive
17:31 < midnight> sipa: Are you talking about weird crystal structures and materials physics again?
17:32 < yanmaani> ergo, ASICs will not be much better than retail
17:32 < sipa> midnight: no
17:32 < sipa> midnight: chia's consensus mechanism
17:32 < midnight> Ah, Bram's thing.
17:32 < sipa> yeah
17:33 < sipa> it just needs disk space - not bandwidth or I/O to it
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17:33 < sipa> there are certainly non-trivial trade-offs in it possible
17:33 < sipa> but i'm not sure those favor asics much
17:35  * midnight pictures endless banks of hard drives
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17:37  * midnight still shudders
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19:59 < yanmaani> Whatever happened with colored coins? Did any clients implement them or anything?
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20:05 < sipa> yanmaani: my (potentially controversial) opinion: colored coins are parasitic, as they compete with the blockchain's native currency, but don't contribute to its value (which is what indirectly leads to its security, as long as subsidy is nonzero)
20:06 < sipa> as a result, native coin holders are incentivized to censor colored coins
20:06 < sipa> and they were implemented in systems like omni
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