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08:38 < instagibbs> oh no, Secure Element(SE) discussion with respect to Statechain Entities(SE)
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08:41 < instagibbs> bsm117532, hacks of StateEs can definitely result in theft, provided the hacker is somewhere earlier in the chain.
08:42 < bsm117532> Yeah I felt ill with that part of my reply...
08:42 < instagibbs> discarding old keyshares could prevent backwards theft, but moving forward the hacker can deposit funds, multispent, whatever
08:42 < instagibbs> maybe that's enough to constrain attacker in practical hacks
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08:43 < bsm117532> I have a few ideas on how to get around that...if I can get one of them to work I'll post it.
08:44 < bsm117532> Half-baked idea: there are 3 parties involved in a transfer. What if all 3 submitted entropy for the new statechain key s2 and also collaboratively signed with it, so that the SE doesn't actually know s2, but has a signature with s2 that can be used in the next transfer...
08:44 < instagibbs> the cute thing is that you still at least detect the hack with the statechain
08:47 < instagibbs> bsm117532, I'd actually have to sit around and think about the math, ive very much been thinking higher level with respect to Proof of Publication requirements etc. I'd be interested in a short writeup if you end up doing that
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09:15 < bsm117532> Thinking about it, don't know how to do it yet. But if you could achieve that, the new owner *definitely* is incentivized to delete a keyshare that would give the old owner control.
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09:15 < bsm117532> You'd need some kind of adaptor signature, created collaboratively among the three, that the SE and new owner could use to assign the UTXO to the next party.
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09:16 < bsm117532> Another thing I've been thinking about gluing on is some implementation of petertodd's single-use seals. You could e.g. create a ZKCP that a seal is still open, and therefore I am the valid owner of this UTXO, as of the last single-use-seal-system update.
09:18 < bsm117532> Tom Trevethan is also the creator of Mainstay, which might be described as a mechanism for single-use-seals. https://www.mainstay.xyz/
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10:38 < bsm117532> The timelocks involved in Decker-Wattenhofer bother me greatly, as they provide an avenue for a previous owner to grief the current owner, locking up his funds.
10:39 < bsm117532> What might be desirable is if the current owner could immediately spend any past owner's on-chain withdrawal, *back* into the statechain. So 2 tx's may appear on the chain, but the current owner can continue as if nothing happened, as long as the statechain is watching the mempool and it's assumed this 2-tx chain gets mined at some point.
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16:39 < bitcoin-wizards3> hi
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17:29 < yanmaani> Have there been any suggestions on lowering the block size limit to encourage UTXO set consolidation?
17:29 < yanmaani> 1 UTXO created lowers the block size by X bytes, 1 UTXO destroyed increases it by X bytes.
17:33 < sipa> that'd be a hard fork
17:34 < sipa> (unless you treat a net destruction as zero, and only treat a net creation as a penalty)
17:43 < yanmaani> What, even for SegWit?
17:43 < sipa> yes
17:44 < yanmaani> Isn't the 1 MB limit the only hard limit?
17:44 < sipa> no, there is now a 4000000 weight limit, which is just as hard as the old 1000000 bytes limit
17:44 < yanmaani> Anyway, you could give the block size a haircut, so that above N net destroyed UTXOs will not count
17:44 < yanmaani> wait what, you didn't make this one soft?? bloody hell
17:45 < sipa> ?
17:45 < yanmaani> I mean you could've just let it sunset after a year and then continually re-soft forked to keep it that way
17:45 < sipa> what does a "soft limit" even mean?
17:45 < yanmaani> instead of putting it in for perpetuity
17:45 < sipa> i think that would be terrible idea
17:45 < yanmaani> how come?
17:45 < yanmaani> assuming that you update it every 6 months, it would just be regular bitcoin update business no?
17:46 < sipa> first, it wouldn't really accomplish any capacity increase (the base limit is still 1000000 bytes, so removing the 4000000 weight limit would just permit people to spam the witness data, not perform more transactions)
17:47 < yanmaani> Right, but you could use it to do things like this
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17:47 < sipa> second, you should never assume that any future consensus rule change in bitcoin would be acceptable to the ecosystem
17:47 < yanmaani> Also, why is that the case? Why can't segwit -> segwit transactions be stored separately?
17:48 < sipa> so sunsetting the weight limit is effectively saying you're ok with unlimited spam after 6 months
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17:48 < sipa> yanmaani: that sounds like an extension block proposal... it's possible, but far more complicated to get right than segwit was
17:49 < yanmaani> well you'd just move all the transaction data to segwit in sw>sw txns
17:49 < yanmaani> in theory
17:49 < sipa> yes, in theory
17:51 < sipa> and that's an extension block effectively
17:51 < sipa> which means you need to deal with the complexity of transfers between the "segwit-only region" and the legacy region
17:51 < yanmaani> hmm
17:51 < yanmaani> but back to my original question; couldn't you add in a net size decrease and then the UTXO size decrease/increase?
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17:51 < yanmaani> so you could gain back size, limited to the haircut
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17:52 < yanmaani> and big consolidations would best be spread across several blocks
17:52 < sipa> i wish you good luck convincing people that a net size decrease is good
17:52 < sipa> :)
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17:52 < sipa> i don't disagree that some rule like this, if we had freedom to design any system, should be considered
17:53 < sipa> but i don't think it's feasible to find acceptance for it now
17:53 < yanmaani> Not even a tiny one? Imagine you'd cut it from 4000 to 3950, with sunset in 6mo
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17:58 < sipa> yanmaani: hard to say without someone actually championing such a proposal and working it out... but it seems rather ineffective if it's that small
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22:03 < zmnscpxj> bsm117532: Since the authorized pubkey onchain remains the same, yes, the current owner can always override all the relative-timelocked transactions with a non-timelocked transaction that becomes a new funding tx for a new statechain
22:03 < zmnscpxj> so it is certainly doable
22:04 < zmnscpxj> in-reply-to: < bsm117532> What might be desirable is if the current owner could immediately spend any past owner's on-chain withdrawal, *back* into the statechain. So 2 tx's may appear on the chain, but the current owner can continue as if nothing happened, as long as the statechain is watching the mempool and it's assumed this 2-tx chain gets mined at some point.
22:04 < zmnscpxj> assuming the Secure Element is sophisticated enough to create such a scheme
22:05 < zmnscpxj> (which increases the audit requirements on the SE)
22:08 < zmnscpxj> < bsm117532> .... you could provide remote attestation to deletion of the key material, in principle
22:09 < zmnscpxj> You need to prove you did not make a copy of the key material before you deleted it as well, which I think is not in general possible to prove
22:09 < zmnscpxj> even if you have a proof-of-deletion
22:10 < zmnscpxj> I believe single-use-seals as well are most easily implemented using a blockchain to record seals that have been used.  A UTXO is a single-use-seal, for example.
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--- Log closed Fri Mar 27 00:00:35 2020