--- Log opened Thu Jun 11 00:00:46 2020
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01:10 < t-bast> jeremyrubin: I don't know if the trapdoor can easily be MPC'd, it probably really depends on the chameleon hashing scheme used so I haven't investigated thoroughly enough
01:11 < t-bast> sanket1729: I think that what's interesting with chameleon hashing is that we could restrict who can rebind the signature (they need to know the trapdoor) and it's linked to a different key than the one you sign with
01:12 < t-bast> sanket1729: but maybe that can be done with signature delegation as well, I don't know at all if chameleon hashing is *required* for something like this
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06:57 < bsm117532> From the way I read it, a new paper about Chameleon Hashes needs to be written along the lines of Lindell's 2p-ECDSA, using ElGamal instead of Pallier. That would give you an MPC-like Chameleon Hash...
06:57 < bsm117532> If something like that already exists I couldn't find it...
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08:23 < t-bast> I couldn't find such a scheme either, but chameleon hashing hasn't gotten much research, I wouldn't be surprised if something along the lines of what you suggest was possible (if people put in the effort)
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10:57 < sanket1729> I tweaked a lot with pay to contract style constructions with chameleon hashes and could not find any use cases that could not be done with signature delegation but *required* chameleon hashes
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11:01 < sanket1729> The chameleon hash scheme from borromean ring signatures paper seems to be just a pedersen hash H(m||xG - eP) with the trapdoor being the DL between G and P.
11:02 < sanket1729> Which looks MPC friendly with secret shared trapdoor.
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11:15 < dr-orlovsky> Hi! Does anyone know is this assymmetric encryption scheme is implemented anywhere in Secp256k1 lib? <https://crypto.stackexchange.com/a/45042> (yes, I know it's slow & inefficient, and better to use DH-based encryption, but I need to encrypt a small piece of the data and require non-interactive protocol)
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11:29 < sipa> dr-orlovsky: libsecp256k1 only explicitly supports key generation, BIP32 derivation, ECDSA signing, ECDSA pubkey recovery, and ECDH
11:30 < sipa> it may be possible to implement ElGamal encryption by stitching together primitives designed for other function
11:30 < dr-orlovsky> Thank you! Am I right that this type of encryption scheme is called "ElGamal"?
11:31 < sipa> yes
11:32 < sipa> the possibly hard part is mapping your data to a curve point
11:32 < yanmaani> sipa: Can't you use ECDH for encryption?
11:32 < sipa> yanmaani: read dr-orlovsky's question
11:32 < yanmaani> Yes, non-interactive
11:32 < sipa> ah yes, DH based encryption can be made non-interactive just fine
11:32 < yanmaani> generate a private key, do ECDH with target public key, encrypt with shared secret, append public key, discard private key
11:33 < sipa> though for very small pieces of data that's overkill
11:35 < dr-orlovsky> thanks for thed clarification
11:36 < sipa> if you want something with better analyzed properties, ECIES is effectively non-interactive ECDH with symmetric encryption, plus hashes for authentication
11:38 < zmnscpxj_> secp256k1_ec_pubkey_tweak_mul is scalar * Point, secp256k1_ec_pubkey_combine adds Points, secp256k1_ec_pubkey_negate the second arg first to subtract Points
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11:40 < dr-orlovsky> My case: client & server. Server keeps encrypted seed phrase. When clients needs server to sign, it provides password and the server decrypts priv key, that's simple. But when client asks server to create a new seed phrase, I'd like the client not to provide the password, and the server still needs to encrypt. So, it should work with priv/pub key: server knowns client's pub key and encrypts with it, while for the
11:40 < dr-orlovsky>  decryption & signing it will ask for the private
11:41 < zmnscpxj_> user-created brain passwords?
11:41 < zmnscpxj_> are those not low-entropy in practice...?
11:42 < dr-orlovsky> instead of password a key pair is used here
11:42 < zmnscpxj_> so why not some kind of multisig?
11:42 < dr-orlovsky> this can be used for multisig as well (you may have multiple signing servers)
11:43 < zmnscpxj_> no I mean you multisig 2-of-2 with server as one signer and  client as other signer
11:43 < belcher> it sounds like his scheme has the entropy from the seed phrase + user provided entropy
11:43 < zmnscpxj_> seems same security model?
11:43 < belcher> so its not like the brainwallets where its just sha256(passphrase)
11:43 < zmnscpxj_> server generates the seed phrase or it comes from the user as well?
11:44 < dr-orlovsky> seed phrase is server-generated and not backed up (b/c it's part of 5/7 multisig or something like that; if it's lost, the funds still can be moved)
11:44 < zmnscpxj_> but then " client asks server to create a new seed phrase" ...?
11:45 < zmnscpxj_> does the client have to trust the server not to hack the encrypted seed phrase?
11:45 < dr-orlovsky> it is his server
11:45 < zmnscpxj_> ah
11:45 < zmnscpxj_> so server is trusted, okay
11:46 < dr-orlovsky> but still it's nice to keep the seeds encrypted and transfer unencryption key only on signing procedures and not in any other case
11:46 < zmnscpxj_> why store the encrypted seed phrase then?
11:46 < dr-orlovsky> this is sort of exchange case: you have multiple signing servers with their own policies
11:47 < zmnscpxj_> See if the server data is copied, somebody else now has copy of encrypted seed phrase, if the encryption itself is too low-entropy then it may become easy for the hacker to derive the original seed phrase
11:47 < dr-orlovsky> that is why the encryption is made 256-bit private key
11:47 < zmnscpxj_> and if you are going to use stronger encryption, you may as well have the "client" program hold its own privkey
11:48 < zmnscpxj_> instead of sending decryption keys over the wire
11:48 < zmnscpxj_> ?
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11:48 < zmnscpxj_> have the client send a partial signature instead of the actual key
11:48 < dr-orlovsky> you can't: you will store than all multisig seeds in one place (client), which destroys the whole security model
11:49 < dr-orlovsky> > have the client send a partial signature instead of the actual key
11:49 < dr-orlovsky> how it can be used for the decryption?
11:49 < zmnscpxj_> see, the resulting encrypt(clientkey, serverkey) can be implemented as a scalar addition of clientkey+serverkey
11:49 < dr-orlovsky> exactly
11:49 < zmnscpxj_> which is the basis of n-of-n multisignatures anyway....
11:50 < zmnscpxj_> so it is the same as using a multisignature scheme
11:50 < dr-orlovsky> well, there is no signature in ecryption/decryption process
11:50 < zmnscpxj_> ?
11:50 < zmnscpxj_> but you are using the decrypted text as a privkey right?
11:50 < dr-orlovsky> yes
11:51 < zmnscpxj_> so the privkey can be just clientkey+serverkey
11:51 < dr-orlovsky> actually extended private key, but does not matter
11:51 < zmnscpxj_> and you can just use some kind of MuSig scheme
11:51 < zmnscpxj_> for equivalent security
11:51 < zmnscpxj_> Schnorr etc.
11:52 < zmnscpxj_> or just use an ECDH for that matter
11:52 < zmnscpxj_> where the resulting privkey is clientkey*serverkey
11:52 < zmnscpxj_> and you just send points over the wire
11:52 < zmnscpxj_> seems safer than sending private key material over the wire
11:52 < dr-orlovsky> You may think of an org (exchange) with multiple ppl having access to transaction signing (accountants, directors) and 9 servers implementing 5/9 multisig; each server having its own policy etc (how many signatures to make a day, how many bitcoins is allowed to spend). This is not just a simple multisig 2-of-2
11:53 < zmnscpxj_> yes, but linearity of keys buys you a lot of flex
11:53 < zmnscpxj_> oh well
11:54 < zmnscpxj_> at least if you authenticate and encrypt the wire between client and server you can just send client decryption key as you will
11:54 < dr-orlovsky> with multiple people you will have a need for them to share their local priv keys, which is even less secure than sending non-signing key per wire
11:54 < zmnscpxj_> why?
11:55 < dr-orlovsky> client & server are connected via LN-type protocol (i.e. end-to-end encrypted)
11:55 < zmnscpxj_> just make a 5-of-9 of 9 x 2-of-2s
11:55 < dr-orlovsky> 20 ppl, 9 servers for instance
11:55 < zmnscpxj_> which is doable today with 2p-ecdsa
11:55 < dr-orlovsky> no Shnorrs yet
11:55 < dr-orlovsky> I need only a single person to sign + 5 servers
11:55 < zmnscpxj_> 2p-ecdsa uses clientkey*serverkey
11:57 < dr-orlovsky> ok, you mean 5/9 multisig over 2p-ecdsa's?
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11:57 < zmnscpxj_> could do it that way
11:57 < dr-orlovsky> but do we have 2p ecdsa impl in secp256k1 lib already?
11:57 < zmnscpxj_> key linearity in EC buys you a lot
11:57 < zmnscpxj_> nope
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11:58 < dr-orlovsky> still seems that it's easier to do ElGamal with secp256k1 than implement 2p ecdsa
11:58 < zmnscpxj_> ok
11:58 < sipa> 2p ecdsa needs very fancy cryptography
11:58 < dr-orlovsky> but I appreciate risk of decryption key transfer
11:58 < sipa> well, by my standards :)
11:58 < dr-orlovsky> and you scheme is very interesting indeed
12:00 < dr-orlovsky> I known Jonas Nick was working on 2p ecdsa in secp256k1 (I assume he is nicker here)
12:00 < dr-orlovsky> * nickler
12:00 < sipa> that would surprise me
12:01 < dr-orlovsky> as a part of Fulmo's Lightning HackSprint days, together with guys from SuredBits
12:02 < dr-orlovsky> <https://wiki.fulmo.org/wiki/Challenges_April_2020#Point_Time_Locked_Contracts_.28PTLC.29>
12:06 < dr-orlovsky> zmnscpxj_: if the server-stored seed phrase is encrypted with client+server keys, wire transfer of client's key is as secure as 2p ecdsa
12:06 < dr-orlovsky> and the server still able to encrypt new seeds (it knowns clients pubkey)
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12:16 < dr-orlovsky> sipa: with ElGamal, which "reversible mapping function" can be chosen (you will recommend) between curve point group and message byte slice?
12:16 < dr-orlovsky> I assume take 256-bit slice of the message and interpret it as an x-coord of the pubkey?
12:17 < sipa> unfortunately, no
12:17 < sipa> because not every x coordinate is valid and on the curve
12:17 < dr-orlovsky> do such functions exist at all?
12:18 < sipa> if you have say 30 bytes of data
12:19 < sipa> you can add 2 random padding bytes, and try; if it's not on the curve, try 2 other bytes etc
12:19 < dr-orlovsky> I see
12:19 < sipa> the problem is that this is not exactly uniform, which may leak information
12:19 < sipa> the more padding bytes the closer to uniform the mapping is
12:19 < dr-orlovsky> ... and the more work is required to both encrypt and decrypt
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--- Log closed Fri Jun 12 00:00:47 2020