--- Log opened Wed Sep 09 00:00:13 2020
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03:05 < alice21> re mempool/fork issues with moving sig verification off-chain (stark proof on-chain), wouldn’t it be possible for miners to repeatedly discard and generate new zkps, somewhat similar to how current mempool cashing works?
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03:07 < zmnscpxj_> the critical path is when *another* miner mines a new block. the time to construct the new zkp is time you are mining on the previous block
03:07 < zmnscpxj_> this exacerbates the various centralization pressures on mining
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03:08 < zmnscpxj_> your alternative is to use a trivially empty zkp in the meantime i.e. spy-mining and generating empty blocks
03:08 < alice21> thought of that too
03:09 < zmnscpxj_> empty blocks are.... something of a waste
03:09 < zmnscpxj_> and can only be paid for with subsidy, not fees
03:09 < zmnscpxj_> as the subsidy drops and the fees become a larger portion of the rewards, the less desirable that is
03:10 < zmnscpxj_> and the less desirable complex proof generation is
03:11 < alice21> should depend on the extra fees included in the proofs as well, they should make it worth it at scale
03:11 < zmnscpxj_> that means it is undesirable to create a block that contains a trivial empty zkp
03:12 < zmnscpxj_> meaning your miners are spinning on an undesirable block
03:12 < zmnscpxj_> while the miner that got the most recent block is NOT
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03:12 < alice21> but that only applies to the seconds after receiving the latest block, before generating the first new proof
03:13 < zmnscpxj_> that "only" is why efforts like FIBRE exist
03:14 < zmnscpxj_> it should apply to the ***milliseconds*** after somebody else discovers a block
03:14 < zmnscpxj_> once you start talking about seconds, miners start centralizing like crazy
03:15 < alice21> not sure I follow, seconds relate to propagation time in this case?
03:15 < zmnscpxj_> what matters is the time from (1) somebody else discovers a new block ---> (2) I am mining on top of the new block
03:15 < zmnscpxj_> it does not matter if that time is about propagation delay or not
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03:16 < alice21> but measured as propagation time, it applies to the arbitrary time span inbetween blocks
03:16 < zmnscpxj_> if I am not mining on top of the latest block, I am losing precious time and I am now tempted to centralize with other miners
03:16 < zmnscpxj_> ....
03:16 < zmnscpxj_> *shrug*
03:16 < zmnscpxj_> I suggest looking up *why* FIBRE exists.
03:17 < alice21> link?
03:17 < zmnscpxj_> propagation time is just part of the time from (1) somebody else discovers a new block ---> (2) I am mining on top of the new block
03:18 < zmnscpxj_> https://bitcoinfibre.org/
03:19 < alice21> this still applies to propagation, which wouldn't be affected, since blocks without proofs would still be valid?
03:19 < zmnscpxj_> .........
03:19 < zmnscpxj_> What I am pointing out.....
03:19 < zmnscpxj_> .... is that we worry about propagation....
03:20 < zmnscpxj_> ....because if the time it takes from (1) somebody else discovers a new block ---> (2) I am mining on top of the new block ....
03:20 < zmnscpxj_> .... is more than a few dozen milliseconds....
03:20 < zmnscpxj_> ....miners start centralizing like crazy
03:20 < zmnscpxj_> adding a zkp that takes *seconds* to compute increases the time from (1) to (2)
03:21 < zmnscpxj_> do you understand now?
03:21 < zmnscpxj_> alternately I can improve the time (1) to (2) by not constructing a zkp
03:21 < zmnscpxj_> and instead not get fees from the zkp construction
03:21 < zmnscpxj_> in which case I still lose out on fees
03:21 < zmnscpxj_> relative to who got the new block
03:22 < zmnscpxj_> meaning mining becomes a race, not a lottry
03:22 < zmnscpxj_> which is what we want to avoid
03:22 < alice21> this makes more sense
03:23 < alice21> can you elaborate on why it would be less lottery?
03:23 < zmnscpxj_> yes
03:23 < zmnscpxj_> we want mining to be a lottery, not a race
03:24 < zmnscpxj_> because the miner who got the new block knows all the transaction that got into that block
03:24 < zmnscpxj_> and can pre-prepare the zkp of the next block before discovering the current one (it knows what other txes are still remaining in the mempool after its current block)
03:25 < zmnscpxj_> so when it gets the current block
03:25 < zmnscpxj_> it can immediately work on the next block
03:25 < zmnscpxj_> and while working on the next block, it can pre-prepare the next next block zkp
03:26 < zmnscpxj_> while you are still reading the block, updating your mempool, and generating a new zkp
03:26 < zmnscpxj_> that miner thus gets more for its hashpower
03:26 < alice21> one possible approach to mitigate this might be some form of distributed proof generation, with a lottery element in it
03:26 < zmnscpxj_> and if it is larger than most other miners, this exacerbates
03:26 < zmnscpxj_> any small advantage accumulates
03:26 < zmnscpxj_> then that is what is needed
03:27 < zmnscpxj_> though I would also like to point out that in general, more complicated means more attack surface
03:27 < alice21> distributed proof generation would be optimal for energy efficiency as well
03:27 < alice21> for sure, it would complicate the attack surface..
03:28 < zmnscpxj_> yes
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03:28 < zmnscpxj_> and mining is really something you do not want to have an attack surface
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03:28 < alice21> mempool is already complicated though
03:28 < zmnscpxj_> yes
03:29 < zmnscpxj_> that is why there are nasty mempool attacks on lightning, xref. ariard etc. work
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03:41 < alice21> with sub-second proof generation time for >1k transactions, the lottery/race balance would only be slightly affected
03:41 < alice21> faster verification would make propagation faster
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03:42 < zmnscpxj_> possibly
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03:43 < zmnscpxj_> but if you have support for non-zkp blocks, large miners can then use that to attack small miners.
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03:45 < alice21> yes, small miners would probably benefit from shared proof generation
03:47 < zmnscpxj_> ?
03:47 < zmnscpxj_> what I mean is, if the propagation of with-zkp blocks is ultimately faster
03:47 < zmnscpxj_> then large miners can use non-zkp blocks to slow down small miners
03:48 < alice21> gotcha, but they wouldn't have much incentive for this behaviour?
03:49 < zmnscpxj_> not sure. you needs someone who is more expert on block-withholding attacks than I am
03:49 < alice21> boils down to fees in zkp-blocks. if they are sufficient, it should make slowing down small miners with non-zkp blocks less profitable
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08:18 < yanmaani> zmanian_: One solution might be to somehow require miners to make available to their pool the txn merkle tree, so everyone can take the block as provided to miners and swap out the address.
08:18 < yanmaani> 'spy mining'
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--- Log closed Thu Sep 10 00:00:14 2020