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08:55 < andytoshi> sipa: pls join ##miniscript
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09:44 < elichai2> maybe this is a better place. why does bitcoin headers have the `bits` field? what does the whole compact representation complexity gives us?
09:46 < sipa> elichai2: before headers-first sync it was useful
09:47 < kanzure> http://diyhpl.us/wiki/transcripts/greg-maxwell/greg-maxwell-bitcoin-core-testing/
09:47 < elichai2> sipa: how?
09:47 < sipa> as it enabled a heuristic that let you calculate that a particular header has too low difficulty to possibly be part of a chain that beats the current one
09:48 < sipa> elichai2: with the nBits field, you can verify whether a header matches its own claimed difficulty
09:48 < sipa> even without having its ancestors
09:48 < sipa> of course, it doesn't let you verify that that block has the correct difficulty, but there are bounds on what the correct difficulty can be
09:48 < elichai2> well if it's malicious he'll just put a low difficulty value there?
09:48 < elichai2> oh using bounds hmm
09:48 < elichai2> did core really used bounds on this?
09:48 < sipa> yes
09:49 < sipa> it'd be trivial to spam someone with low-difficulty headers otherwise
09:49 < sipa> the difficulty can at most drop 4x every 2016 blocks
09:49 < sipa> eh, sorry, spam low-difficulty *blocks*
09:50 < sipa> but since headers-first sync, blocks are never downloaded before having the headers (and their ancestors) all verified
09:50 < sipa> so since then, i believe there is no strict use for having headers encode their own difficulty
09:50 < sipa> doesn't hurt though
09:50 < elichai2> you lose block/header space :P
09:51 < sipa> ok, sure
09:51 < sipa> though if that was really an issue, it could be stored implicitly
09:51 < sipa> (or stored once for every 2016 blocks)
09:51 < elichai2> jk, I asked because of a rust-bitcoin user confusion on pow-limits etc, that he used target values directly without doing a roundtrip to-from compact bits
09:52 < sipa> https://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/questions/34155/is-it-necessary-for-blocks-to-record-the-nbits-difficulty-parameter
09:52 < sipa> a bit outdated, though
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09:56 < elichai2> easier to store locally a single uint256 but sure, thanks :)
09:56 < sipa> that sounds orthogonal
10:00 < elichai2> SPV nodes, instead of using the bits to verify the difficulty of headers you can have a uint256 of the last target and calculate from that past/future targets (unless I misunderstood harding )
10:02 < sipa> for the purpose of verification you don't need to store the difficulty at all
10:02 < sipa> (except once per 2016 blocks)
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10:27 < yanmaani> the bigger question is why the difficulty doesn't start at 1
10:27 < yanmaani> outside of regtest
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10:28 < sipa> it does on mainnet
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10:37 < yanmaani> but not on testnet?
10:37 < sipa> i think on testnet too
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10:38 < sipa> ah no, regtest has significantly lower difficulty than 1
10:38 < yanmaani>         consensus.fPowAllowMinDifficultyBlocks = false;
10:39 < sipa> that's the special testnet rule
10:39 < sipa> allowing difficulty=1 blocks after 20 minutes, regarldess of previous difficulty
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10:42 < yanmaani> But the first Bitcoin blocks still begin with more than 1 zero
10:48 < sipa> difficulty = ratio between maximum permissive target and minimum target
10:48 < sipa> where minimum target is 0x00000000ffff0000....
10:49 < sipa> difficulty is not "the number of zeroes"
10:50 < sipa> https://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/questions/85896/mining-difficulty-and-leading-zeros/85897
10:51 < sipa> and it's certainly not related to a block header's hash; it's related to how high that hash was allowed to be
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11:07 < yanmaani> Yeah, but why is the minimum target not 1?
11:08 < sipa> trivial DoSD
11:08 < sipa> early in the chain
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11:08 < yanmaani> wouldn't it ramp up very quickly though?
11:10 < sipa> maybe? who cares?
11:10 < sipa> even a single CPU in 2009 could mine a block at difficulty 1 in a short time
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11:14 < yanmaani> I guess it makes mining easier
11:15 < sipa> you mean harder?
11:16 < yanmaani> no, easier. If you know it always needs to be below 0x00000000ffff0000, you can do a quick check
11:16 < sipa> right
11:16 < sipa> i believe that's what ASICs do
11:16 < yanmaani> instead of doing (if hash < target {...}), you can do (if hash < min_target && hash < target {})
11:17 < sipa> doing a check for the highest 32 bits (or even more) being zero in silicon, and doing the full check in software
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--- Log closed Fri Sep 11 00:00:15 2020