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08:58 < abyssangel> hello
09:01 < abyssangel> hello:)
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09:06 < abyssdemon> hello
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12:17 < adam3us> roconnor BlueMatt sanket1729 would be interested to discuss general bitcoin covenant designs
12:22 < adam3us> liquid has OP_CHECKSIGFROMSTACK https://blockstream.com/2016/11/02/en-covenants-in-elements-alpha/ and more recently Dmitry Petukhov @dmpsim with some input from Jonas Nick @n1ckler and others was able to find some tricks to push that further and make secured loans using OP_CSFS
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12:24 < adam3us> see https://ruggedbytes.com/articles/ll/ and video explainer https://ruggedbytes.com/articles/ll/
12:25 < adam3us> i think it would be interesting and of value to consider the design of a softforkable opcode for bitcoin to enable maybe vaults, and op_ctv as a subset should be buildable with a more generic mechanism.
12:26 < adam3us> and BlueMatt has been talking recently about sharing utxos in a kind of model similar to unilateral withdraw single server "chain" with fraud-proofs. maybe there would be a way to make that also work. i am thinking the fraud proofs are the harder part
12:28 < martindale> adam3us: how much use is OP_CHECKSIGFROMSTACK seeing in production w/ Liquid?  Has anyone used it in real-world services?
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12:45 < adam3us> roconnor's 2016 blog post showed how to do it, but @dmpsim's work goes further with a new way to scale the script complexity using https://twitter.com/Blockstream/status/1294717555588857858?s=20
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12:47 < adam3us> control assets
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12:48 < adam3us> unrelated roconnor also did some work on making an OP_SHA256 merkle-damgard api, ie so that you can cat more data into a rolling hash context
12:50 < roconnor> not entirely unrelated. ;)
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12:56 < roconnor> Also I think jermey has proposed similar opcode before.
12:57 < roconnor> The best way to do covenants IMHO would be new opcodes post-taproot that implement transaction reflection.
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13:01 < adam3us> yes related (i meant unrelated to the has seen practical use sub-question.)
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13:03 < martindale> roconnor: I tend to agree, will be much more easy to deal with in downstream applications than checksigfromstack
13:03 < sanket1729> roconnor, agreed. Any known downsides of allowing transaction introspection?
13:05 < roconnor> only downside is that then enable covenants, and hard to sanely as a NOP softfork.
13:05 < roconnor> but taproot has OP_SUCCESS softforks instead.
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13:06 < dgpv> btw the covenants used for loans contract only commit to outputs, so would be realizable with OP_CTV
13:09 < sanket1729> What were the objections(if any) to add checksifromstack to bitcoin?
13:10 < dgpv> re transaction introspection I'd say the issue is more footguns due to complexity -> more risks to be locked out of funds, but that is localized to the funds  that participate in contracts, risk is entirely on participants
13:11 < dgpv> re csfs vs ctv is that signature check is actually not necessary for the purpose of introspection
13:12 < dgpv> introspection is incidental to the signature check of arbitrary data
13:13 < dgpv> ctv gives limited introspection without costly signature verification
13:36 < dgpv> introspection can be used to incentivize certain protocol changes - create a covenant that allows withdraw of significant amount of bitcoin if the transaction has certain structure that is only possible with certain change in protocol
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13:37 < dgpv> and requires a signature from some known pubkeys of some devs
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13:38 < dgpv> kind-of pseudonimous-sourced bounty for protocol changes
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13:40 < dgpv> "and requires a signature from some known pubkeys of some devs" -- or not publicitly known pubkeys, so that they can collect the bounty without the public knowledge
13:41 < dgpv> although the structure of the covenant will still become visible after spend, so at least the fact of possible incentivization will become public
13:42 < dgpv> same thing is possible on-chain of course, but with much less certainty for the incentivized
13:42 < dgpv> *possible off-chain I meant
13:44 < dgpv> OTOH the same thing is possible with just pre-signed transactions
13:44 < dgpv> so this is not likely a serious argument against covenants
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20:00 < CaffeineVaccine> Can someone explain to me why algorithmic finality models have such complex rules?
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23:24 < adlai> because CaffeineVaccine, abyssangel, abyssdemon, along with any hypothetical reincarnations of John Milton, all need to reach agreement without ever spending enough time in the same WAN cell to have a sane conversation.
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--- Log closed Tue Sep 22 00:00:25 2020