--- Log opened Thu Nov 26 00:00:27 2020
00:36 -!- andyrtr1 [~andyrtr@178.239.168.171] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
00:50 -!- bildramer1 [~bildramer@2a02:587:6230:7100:ac9b:cca1:4258:dfa9] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
00:53 -!- bildramer [~bildramer@2a02:587:6230:7100:e58c:5d9f:8d77:dc44] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
00:54 -!- bildramer1 is now known as bildramer
01:08 -!- luke-jr [~luke-jr@unaffiliated/luke-jr] has quit [Quit: ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net]
01:08 -!- luke-jr [~luke-jr@unaffiliated/luke-jr] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
01:24 -!- _whitelogger [~whitelogg@uruz.whitequark.org] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
01:25 -!- _whitelogger [~whitelogg@uruz.whitequark.org] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
01:32 -!- Guyver2 [Guyver@guyver2.xs4all.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
01:34 -!- kenshi84_ [~kenshi84@w0109-49-135-47-4.uqwimax.jp] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
01:36 -!- kenshi84 [~kenshi84@w0109-49-135-47-246.uqwimax.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds]
01:38 -!- gribble [~gribble@unaffiliated/nanotube/bot/gribble] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
01:45 -!- willcl_ark [~quassel@cpc123780-trow7-2-0-cust177.18-1.cable.virginm.net] has quit [Quit: Quit]
01:51 -!- gribble [~gribble@unaffiliated/nanotube/bot/gribble] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
02:04 -!- willcl_ark [~quassel@cpc123780-trow7-2-0-cust177.18-1.cable.virginm.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
02:06 -!- willcl_ark [~quassel@cpc123780-trow7-2-0-cust177.18-1.cable.virginm.net] has quit [Client Quit]
02:34 -!- willcl_ark [~quassel@cpc123780-trow7-2-0-cust177.18-1.cable.virginm.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
02:40 -!- TheoStorm [~TheoStorm@ptr-g0z44tuxwqbl7hb8pe6.18120a2.ip6.access.telenet.be] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
02:41 -!- laptop [~laptop@ppp-1-41.leed-a-2.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
02:50 < Blackwolfsa4> Hi, I think this is more of what if case study. In bitcoin, transactions are somewhat malleable.
02:50 < Blackwolfsa4> What we know today. If we where to recreate bitcoin from scratch. Should we try to stop this? Or is this not such a bug deal?
03:14 -!- reallll is now known as belcher
03:15 -!- TheoStorm [~TheoStorm@ptr-g0z44tuxwqbl7hb8pe6.18120a2.ip6.access.telenet.be] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
03:29 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
03:32 < fluffypony> Blackwolfsa4: SegWit bundled a malleability fix in, so there's lots that's been written about it
03:33 < fluffypony> mtgox infamously blamed their losses on malleability attacks, but it's hard to validate whether there's any truth to that
03:34 -!- charuto [charutocaf@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-uihulxcnqniizsba] has quit [Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM]
03:34 -!- martindale [ericfabric@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-ogaatqoiqypshlwd] has quit [Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM]
03:34 -!- h4sh3d[m] [h4sh3dmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-buordpcswnotyhff] has quit [Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM]
03:34 -!- Jeremy_Rand_DT[m [jeremyra1@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-gggsfvbuhppjuifw] has quit [Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM]
03:34 -!- ttc [tomtauma1@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-lgjugwvkytxobgef] has quit [Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM]
03:35 -!- zkao [zkaomatrix@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-pipvonkwmduyvurq] has quit [Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM]
03:35 -!- remaeus [remaeusrol@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-zcwdmgncbygqmecx] has quit [Quit: Bridge terminating on SIGTERM]
03:43 -!- Jeremy_Rand_DT[m [jeremyra1@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-grykjaqatccldeun] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
04:00 -!- luke-jr [~luke-jr@unaffiliated/luke-jr] has quit [Quit: ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net]
04:01 -!- martindale [ericfabric@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-wopbjedctjvuvmwn] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
04:01 -!- h4sh3d[m] [h4sh3dmatr@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-puvuvbdptzktcnmr] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
04:01 -!- ttc [tomtauma1@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-mshtvdkklhnazscc] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
04:01 -!- charuto [charutocaf@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-ncldxqzqqihhwcso] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
04:01 -!- zkao [zkaomatrix@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-wsmwkwdwuwdqrijv] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
04:01 -!- remaeus [remaeusrol@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-wboxolhnfigardki] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
04:01 -!- luke-jr [~luke-jr@unaffiliated/luke-jr] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
04:18 -!- dleffler1 [~dleffler@178.239.168.171] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
04:23 -!- jonatack [~jon@134.19.179.163] has quit [Quit: jonatack]
04:27 < Blackwolfsa4> Thanks, please correct me if I am wrong, but the inputs are still technically malleable? Even after segwit. I know this would most likely mean a broken transaction and or block. But is still a large concern and is this something we should actively do something about? Or is this more like we dont care, or it would be nice to do something about this?
04:28 < Blackwolfsa4> with inputs I mean the witness data.
05:36 -!- jonatack [~jon@88.124.242.136] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
05:40 -!- jonatack [~jon@88.124.242.136] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
05:41 < darosior> Blackwolfsa4: yea but that's witness data is not used anymore in the txid, ie for referencing previous outputs in second stage transactions.
05:41 -!- jonatack [~jon@82.102.27.171] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
05:55 -!- sr_gi [~sr_gi@80.174.218.168.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
05:56 -!- sr_gi [~sr_gi@80.174.218.168.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
06:13 -!- laptop [~laptop@ppp-1-41.leed-a-2.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
06:23 -!- laptop [~laptop@ppp-1-41.leed-a-2.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
06:27 -!- TheoStorm [~TheoStorm@78-23-13-161.access.telenet.be] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
06:40 -!- satwo [~textual@2600:1700:2d30:5310:a1c8:226c:c134:e878] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
06:41 < andytoshi> Blackwolfsa4: if we were recreating bitcoin from scratch, yes, absolutely i'd have rethought how everything is encoded and committed to
06:41 < andytoshi> not only segwit, but silly stuff like https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/master/src/consensus/merkle.cpp#L8 could've been fixed
06:41 < andytoshi> and the double-sha256s everywhere could've been replaced with something cheaper
06:42 < andytoshi> and all the 160-bit hashes could've been dropped (though these aren't used outside of script)
06:43 < andytoshi> the silliness where hashes are reversed; the multiple different varint encodings; the weird signed-magnitude numbers in Script
06:44 < andytoshi> the problematic sighash computations (which segwit v0 mostly fixed, and v1 entirely fixed we think)
06:45 < andytoshi> the way difficulty is encoded in a 4-byte floating point format that came from openssl
06:45 < andytoshi> asicboost
06:47 < andytoshi> requiring inputs and outputs within a tx be sorted
06:47 < andytoshi> (this would break sighash_single but i think that was misguided to begin with, it was a low-level primitive that we never managed to sand the sharp edges off of)
06:48 < andytoshi> the way locktimes are encoded (i'd have dropped timestamp-based locktimes entirely)
06:51 < andytoshi> allowing uncompressed and hybrid EC keys everywhere
07:02 < waxwing> andytoshi, oh interesting one about locktimes. why's that?
07:04 < andytoshi> waxwing: (a) it's irritating to have to special-case the number 500_000_000 in all locktime-related code, and then in script to have 5-byte numbers when every other numeric opcode uses 4-byte numbers (although i'd have also changed this stuff to be 64-bit LE twos-complement everywhere)
07:04 < andytoshi> (b) because of the issue where if you mix time-based and height-based locktimes in script, they're mutually exclusive
07:05 < andytoshi> (c) because timestamps themselves are weird to work with, in principle miners can push them arbitrarily far into the future if they're incentivized to, though we have heuristics to prevent such blocks from propagating
07:05 < andytoshi> (i guess another thing i'd add to my giant list above would be to fix the difficulty adjustment, at least to fix the timewarp bug if nothing else. though that's not really an "encoding" related issue)
07:06 < waxwing> interesting. is there a case for the non-blockheight timestamp version? it seems if that didn't exist we'd be much better off.
07:06 < andytoshi> they're just easier for humans to think about
07:06 < andytoshi> and in practice you can assume block timestamps are roughly accurate, so they basically "just work"
07:06 < waxwing> clock timestamps in general always looked icky
07:06 < andytoshi> agreed
07:31 -!- pinheadmz [~pinheadmz@pool-100-33-69-78.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
07:32 -!- dleffler1 [~dleffler@178.239.168.171] has quit []
07:33 -!- Kiminuo [~mix@217.138.199.36] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
07:36 -!- pinheadmz [~pinheadmz@pool-100-33-69-78.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: pinheadmz]
07:41 -!- pinheadmz [~pinheadmz@pool-100-33-69-78.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
07:46 -!- pinheadmz [~pinheadmz@pool-100-33-69-78.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Client Quit]
07:59 -!- jMCg [~jMCg@195.140.213.38] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
08:05 -!- davispuh [~quassel@95.68.54.9] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
08:15 -!- CryptoDavid [uid14990@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-livrrleybzhcxvgs] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
08:53 -!- pinheadmz [~pinheadmz@pool-100-33-69-78.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
09:08 -!- satwo [~textual@2600:1700:2d30:5310:a1c8:226c:c134:e878] has quit [Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…]
09:16 -!- jesseposner [~jp@2601:643:8980:bfd2:29df:a2cb:6f55:8d6d] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
09:22 -!- TheoStorm [~TheoStorm@78-23-13-161.access.telenet.be] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
09:33 -!- vtnerd [~vtnerd@50-81-138-206.client.mchsi.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
09:34 -!- joelklabo [~textual@157-131-101-185.fiber.dynamic.sonic.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
09:35 -!- vtnerd [~vtnerd@50-81-138-206.client.mchsi.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
09:58 -!- Kiminuo [~mix@217.138.199.36] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
10:06 -!- sr_gi [~sr_gi@80.174.218.168.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
10:06 -!- sr_gi [~sr_gi@80.174.218.168.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
10:14 -!- jesseposner [~jp@2601:643:8980:bfd2:29df:a2cb:6f55:8d6d] has quit [Quit: My Mac Mini has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…]
10:27 -!- vtnerd [~vtnerd@50-81-138-206.client.mchsi.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
10:33 -!- vtnerd [~vtnerd@50-81-138-206.client.mchsi.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
10:41 -!- vtnerd [~vtnerd@50-81-138-206.client.mchsi.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
10:44 -!- vtnerd [~vtnerd@50-81-138-206.client.mchsi.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
10:52 -!- vtnerd [~vtnerd@50-81-138-206.client.mchsi.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
11:02 -!- satwo [~textual@209-30-116-174.lightspeed.nsvltn.sbcglobal.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
11:04 -!- satwo [~textual@209-30-116-174.lightspeed.nsvltn.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Client Quit]
11:05 -!- vtnerd [~vtnerd@50-81-138-206.client.mchsi.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
11:09 -!- shesek [~shesek@unaffiliated/shesek] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
11:13 -!- bitdex [~bitdex@gateway/tor-sasl/bitdex] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
11:27 -!- justanotheruser [~justanoth@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
11:36 -!- joelklabo [~textual@157-131-101-185.fiber.dynamic.sonic.net] has quit [Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…]
11:38 -!- vtnerd [~vtnerd@50-81-138-206.client.mchsi.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
11:40 -!- vtnerd [~vtnerd@50-81-138-206.client.mchsi.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
11:52 -!- CryptoDavid [uid14990@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-livrrleybzhcxvgs] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity]
12:01 -!- joelklabo [~textual@157-131-101-185.fiber.dynamic.sonic.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
12:29 -!- davispuh [~quassel@95.68.54.9] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
12:29 -!- vtnerd [~vtnerd@50-81-138-206.client.mchsi.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
12:30 -!- vtnerd [~vtnerd@50-81-138-206.client.mchsi.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
12:36 -!- davispuh [~quassel@95.68.54.9] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
12:46 -!- Kiminuo [~mix@217.138.199.36] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
12:55 -!- satwo [~textual@2600:1700:2d30:5310:a1c8:226c:c134:e878] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
13:00 -!- satwo [~textual@2600:1700:2d30:5310:a1c8:226c:c134:e878] has quit [Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…]
13:06 -!- luke-jr [~luke-jr@unaffiliated/luke-jr] has quit [Quit: ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net]
13:07 -!- luke-jr [~luke-jr@unaffiliated/luke-jr] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
13:30 -!- justanotheruser [~justanoth@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
13:30 -!- satwo [~textual@2600:1700:2d30:5310:a1c8:226c:c134:e878] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
13:35 -!- TheoStorm [~TheoStorm@ptr-g0z44tssyeh85xdpzlx.18120a2.ip6.access.telenet.be] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
13:36 -!- gleb [~gleb@178.150.137.228] has quit [Quit: Ping timeout (120 seconds)]
13:37 -!- gleb [~gleb@178.150.137.228] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
13:57 -!- justanotheruser [~justanoth@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
14:00 -!- joelklabo [~textual@157-131-101-185.fiber.dynamic.sonic.net] has quit [Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…]
14:45 -!- gleb [~gleb@178.150.137.228] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
15:00 -!- Guyver2 [Guyver@guyver2.xs4all.nl] has quit [Quit: Going offline, see ya! (www.adiirc.com)]
15:02 -!- gleb [~gleb@178.150.137.228] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
15:13 -!- rusty [~rusty@pdpc/supporter/bronze/rusty] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
15:17 -!- jesseposner [~jp@2601:643:8980:bfd2:29df:a2cb:6f55:8d6d] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
15:18 -!- gleb3 [~gleb@178.150.137.228] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
15:19 -!- gleb [~gleb@178.150.137.228] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
15:19 -!- gleb3 is now known as gleb
15:19 -!- jesseposner [~jp@2601:643:8980:bfd2:29df:a2cb:6f55:8d6d] has quit [Client Quit]
15:20 -!- jesseposner [~jp@2601:643:8980:bfd2:29df:a2cb:6f55:8d6d] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
15:28 -!- satwo [~textual@2600:1700:2d30:5310:a1c8:226c:c134:e878] has quit [Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…]
15:35 -!- justanotheruser [~justanoth@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
16:35 -!- rusty [~rusty@pdpc/supporter/bronze/rusty] has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
17:10 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
17:12 -!- shesek [~shesek@164.90.217.137] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
17:12 -!- shesek [~shesek@164.90.217.137] has quit [Changing host]
17:12 -!- shesek [~shesek@unaffiliated/shesek] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
17:12 -!- laptop [~laptop@ppp-1-41.leed-a-2.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
17:13 -!- pinheadmz [~pinheadmz@pool-100-33-69-78.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: pinheadmz]
17:15 -!- pinheadmz [~pinheadmz@pool-100-33-69-78.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
17:31 -!- pinheadmz [~pinheadmz@pool-100-33-69-78.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: pinheadmz]
17:47 -!- pinheadmz [~pinheadmz@pool-100-33-69-78.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
18:00 -!- jMCg [~jMCg@195.140.213.38] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
18:19 -!- davispuh [~quassel@95.68.54.9] has quit [Quit: http://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. Anywhere.]
18:41 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
18:53 -!- sunetoft [~sunetoft@185.103.96.147] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
19:11 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
19:11 -!- pinheadmz [~pinheadmz@pool-100-33-69-78.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: pinheadmz]
19:15 -!- rusty [~rusty@pdpc/supporter/bronze/rusty] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
19:16 -!- TheoStorm [~TheoStorm@ptr-g0z44tssyeh85xdpzlx.18120a2.ip6.access.telenet.be] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
19:48 -!- pinheadmz [~pinheadmz@pool-100-33-69-78.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
19:48 -!- nick_freeman [~nick_free@port-92-194-41-13.dynamic.as20676.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
19:52 -!- nick_fre_ [~nick_free@port-92-194-120-140.dynamic.as20676.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
19:55 -!- reallll [~belcher@unaffiliated/belcher] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
19:57 -!- belcher [~belcher@unaffiliated/belcher] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
20:06 -!- ghost43 [~daer@gateway/tor-sasl/daer] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
20:07 -!- ghost43 [~daer@gateway/tor-sasl/daer] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
20:23 -!- rusty [~rusty@pdpc/supporter/bronze/rusty] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
20:32 -!- sr_gi [~sr_gi@80.174.218.168.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
20:32 -!- sr_gi [~sr_gi@80.174.218.168.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
21:08 -!- flag [~flag@net-5-94-131-153.cust.vodafonedsl.it] has quit [Quit: leaving]
21:09 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
21:15 -!- flag [~flag@net-93-66-71-105.cust.vodafonedsl.it] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
21:16 -!- pinheadmz [~pinheadmz@pool-100-33-69-78.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: pinheadmz]
21:36 -!- rusty [~rusty@pdpc/supporter/bronze/rusty] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
21:41 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
21:49 -!- rusty [~rusty@pdpc/supporter/bronze/rusty] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
22:43 < CjS77> Sounds like great fodder for a blog series, andytoshi. Teaching about how Bitcoin really works by talking about all the things that you would have changed if you were doing a complete rewrite :)
22:48 < CjS77> Specifically, on the malleability of the input script witness data. I know segwit pins the txid, but there's still the other wtxid that's still technically malleable. In an ideal world, I presume you'd want to prevent that too, and segwit is a compromise that somewhat solves the problem while maintaining backward compatibility?
22:57 < CjS77> Though practically, would there be a simple way to sign / commit to  the unlocking script and maintain the flexibility that bitcoin script offers?
23:39 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
23:53 -!- Kiminuo [~mix@141.98.103.116] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
--- Log closed Fri Nov 27 00:00:28 2020