--- Log opened Wed Dec 30 00:00:01 2020 00:17 -!- shesek [~shesek@unaffiliated/shesek] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:18 -!- shesek [~shesek@164.90.217.137] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:18 -!- shesek [~shesek@164.90.217.137] has quit [Changing host] 00:18 -!- shesek [~shesek@unaffiliated/shesek] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:36 -!- maop [~maop@178.239.168.171] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:39 -!- LaserShark [~LaserShar@185.163.110.125] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:58 -!- willcl_ark [~quassel@cpc123780-trow7-2-0-cust177.18-1.cable.virginm.net] has quit [Quit: Quit] 00:59 -!- willcl_ark [~quassel@cpc123780-trow7-2-0-cust177.18-1.cable.virginm.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:00 -!- ttc [tomtauma1@gateway/shell/matrix.org/x-ntsgotaxezcoicph] has quit [Quit: Idle for 30+ days] 01:01 -!- Guyver2 [Guyver@guyver2.xs4all.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:15 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:30 -!- jessepos_ [~jp@2601:645:200:162f:c9e2:a1fa:f83e:4f65] has quit [Quit: My Mac Mini has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…] 02:32 -!- adiabat [~adiabat@63.209.32.102] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 02:32 -!- adiabat [~adiabat@63.209.32.102] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 02:36 -!- TheoStorm [~TheoStorm@78-23-3-57.access.telenet.be] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 02:48 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:17 -!- laptop [~laptop@ppp-3-140.leed-a-1.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 03:45 -!- laptop_ [~laptop@ppp-3-140.leed-a-1.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 03:48 -!- laptop [~laptop@ppp-3-140.leed-a-1.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 04:20 -!- TheoStorm [~TheoStorm@78-23-3-57.access.telenet.be] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 04:25 -!- LaserShark [~LaserShar@185.163.110.125] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:45 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 05:17 -!- pinheadmz [~pinheadmz@68.161.139.178] has quit [Quit: pinheadmz] 05:18 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 05:38 -!- sunetoft [~sunetoft@178.239.168.171] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 05:41 < queip> is it possible to create a multi signature (at least 2-of-2) in such a way that on creation devices A and B cooperate somehow but neither sees any private information allowing to sign without consent of other party, and the multi signature made later by A and B is as small as current bitcoin signatures 05:41 < queip> e.g. if we do not care about backward compatibility and such, can at least 2-multisignatures have 0 blockchain size overhead while being secure 05:42 < queip> what if we go outside of secp256k1 05:49 -!- pinheadmz [~pinheadmz@68.161.139.178] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 05:54 < aj> queip: yes, that's what musig does 06:04 < queip> aj: it has really identical size to single secp256k1 signature? 06:04 < michaelfolkson> queip: I think (may be wrong) it just needs to be Schnorr and another curve could be used. Obviously not relevant to Bitcoin, curve won't be changing time anytime soon 06:06 < michaelfolkson> But yeah it is just a single signature mapped to a single key (which is made from the multiple keys) 06:07 -!- glozow [uid453516@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-tllfqodsrhuggeuj] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 06:09 -!- jonatack [~jon@213.152.161.211] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 06:10 -!- jonatack [~jon@88.124.242.136] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 06:15 -!- jonatack [~jon@88.124.242.136] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 06:15 -!- jonatack [~jon@104.254.90.235] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 06:32 < queip> great :) So, it would work also on any ECC (including e.g. well known curve 25519)? it is a general operation available on (all?) finate fields? 06:33 -!- dllud [~dllud@unaffiliated/dllud] has quit [Quit: ZNC 1.7.4 - https://znc.in] 06:42 -!- ddustin [~ddustin@unaffiliated/ddustin] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 06:43 -!- dllud [~dllud@unaffiliated/dllud] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 06:43 < michaelfolkson> queip: I think so... the paper is here. https://eprint.iacr.org/2018/068.pdf 06:44 < michaelfolkson> But to get it confirmed ask in #secp256k1 06:45 < michaelfolkson> Obviously Bitcoin devs won't be writing code for a MuSig scheme for any other curve. So you'd have to write the code for another curve (normal warnings, don't roll your own crypto unless you know what you are doing etc etc) 06:54 < kanzure> i spent a few minutes digging this up for someone, so i might as well post the reference 06:55 < kanzure> regarding "On the instability of bitcoin without the block reward" or "bitcoin is unstable without the block reward", 06:55 < kanzure> https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/58x26m/bitcoin_is_unstable_without_the_block_reward/d93y1xh/ 06:55 < kanzure> https://medium.com/@bergealex4/bitcoin-is-unstable-without-the-block-size-size-limit-70db07070a54#.s8j8j6nla 06:58 -!- ddustin [~ddustin@unaffiliated/ddustin] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:59 < waxwing> queip, michaelfolkson bear in mind that the original paper has been superseded by MuSig2 : https://eprint.iacr.org/2020/1261 07:00 < michaelfolkson> waxwing: Right. No problems found with MuSig but MuSig2 is a strict improvement (other than its newness) 07:01 < waxwing> there is also musig-dn but the above is the main thing right now ... yes afair there is nothing curve-specific here. but note, whilst it's a huge step forward to be single-key verified, there is a slight tradeoff: interactivity. 07:01 < waxwing> well the original variant of musig had a flaw in the security proof, it was patched up to 3 round 07:01 < waxwing> then musig2 reinstates 2 round 07:02 < waxwing> so it's like, the tradeoff remains, but it's ameliorated to the greatest extent possible 07:02 < michaelfolkson> Language is hard here :) No problems found with *latest* MuSig 07:02 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:02 < michaelfolkson> MuSig 1b is fine 07:02 < michaelfolkson> (as far as we know) 07:03 < waxwing> yeah but it's intrinsically a rather complicated and involved story, so language or not, confusion is very forgivable 07:03 < michaelfolkson> MuSig 1a had a flaw 07:03 < waxwing> we didn't even talk about musig-dn :) 07:03 < michaelfolkson> My understanding of that is it is interesting academically but unlikely to be used in production for much 07:04 < michaelfolkson> Due to computational cost https://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/questions/98845/which-musig-scheme-is-optimal-classic-musig-or-this-new-musig-dn-scheme 07:06 < waxwing> i was going to go through that latest security proof (musig2) in some detail but it's really quite a can of worms (algebraic group model; OMDL, the way it uses "forking lemma" etc.). 07:06 < waxwing> somewhere deep in the weeds of it there is a very interesting/idea insight but .. sheesh that stuff is hard. 07:07 < waxwing> naively you'd think the nonce points (R_i) have to be committed to; that's what 3 round was. it seemed to make sense. Albeit it's very non-obvious that wagner's attack is as effective as it is. 07:10 -!- gribble [~gribble@unaffiliated/nanotube/bot/gribble] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:12 -!- dgenr8 [~dgenr8@unaffiliated/dgenr8] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:13 < waxwing> iirc the core of the idea was that the "target" value in the wagner attack is, in the musig2 scenario, not constant, which prevents it from working. 07:16 -!- dllud [~dllud@unaffiliated/dllud] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 07:17 -!- ddustin [~ddustin@unaffiliated/ddustin] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:20 -!- sunetoft [~sunetoft@178.239.168.171] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:21 -!- dllud [~dllud@unaffiliated/dllud] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:22 -!- gribble [~gribble@unaffiliated/nanotube/bot/gribble] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:31 < michaelfolkson> If you're here kanzure, I have a question for you. The Bitcoin functional test framework uses python-bitcoinlib code. 07:32 < michaelfolkson> Is there any history of pushing updates to python-bitcoinlib to Bitcoin Core functional tests? (in form of PR obviously) 07:32 < michaelfolkson> Or was it just taken at a point in time and then maintained entirely independently? 07:34 < michaelfolkson> Presumably some of the Python Taproot code could be taken from Core and used in python-bitcoinlib 07:43 < michaelfolkson> On the MuSig2 proof waxwing, maybe one day when I'm feeling brave I'll scratch at the surface. Interesting that it is a lot more complex than MuSig 1b though 07:43 -!- ddustin [~ddustin@unaffiliated/ddustin] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:43 < michaelfolkson> Complexity being the enemy of security n all 07:48 -!- chipc [~chipc@217.146.82.202] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:55 -!- CryptoDavid [uid14990@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-txnimirlavqaqrgd] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:57 < waxwing> mm .. it was pretty complex before! i mean you're right, but - complexity of security proofs is obviously a bit different from complexity of a protocol. 07:59 < michaelfolkson> It can't generally be helped in the case of proofs. But I'd guess the more complex the proof the more likely it will need revisions 07:59 < michaelfolkson> Easier to make a protocol less complex. A proof got complex for a reason 08:00 -!- dllud [~dllud@unaffiliated/dllud] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 08:02 -!- dllud [~dllud@unaffiliated/dllud] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:03 < pinheadmz> well the UX got less complex with MuSig2 (removed a round trip) which is really good news. We will probably use musig2 at bitgo 08:06 -!- jadi [~jadi@213.207.201.119] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:07 < waxwing> michaelfolkson, the issue is not usually so much revisions - in a way, that's a kind of good sign ... sometimes these proofs go largely unexamined. i feel like the real issue is that they are built from assumption sets in a pick-and-mix fashion. it's really hard to have any sense, sometimes, of what proofs *mean*. 08:08 < waxwing> the example i always remember is dan brown (no, not that one) proving that ECDSA has strong unforgeability in the generic group model. when in fact (so called "malleability") it very trivially doesn't have strong unforgeability. 08:08 < waxwing> so it's almost like, if you don't have an incredibly fine sense of the real story the proof is telling (and how many people in the world have that?), then they're not that useful. 08:09 < waxwing> but i'm wittering, i do agree with your basic point that the more complex it is, the less happy one should be about it. 08:21 < michaelfolkson> That is cool pinheadmz. The motivation for using it is clear. And if there are any problems they will only get found if people use it 08:22 < michaelfolkson> I remember years ago Andreas talking about different blockchains being bug bounties. It seems to me it is kind of similar with new cryptographic schemes. Best to start with smaller amounts of money 08:22 < pinheadmz> And if we adopt a protocol where, along with each tx signature, we exchange nonces for the *next* TX, then we can effectively reduce each multisig to one round -- it just means both parties need to keep track of that state 08:23 < pinheadmz> michaelfolkson heh, is litecoin going to adopt taproot before bitcoin? 08:24 < michaelfolkson> Unpopular opinion maybe but I hope so 08:25 < michaelfolkson> Upsets the purity maximalists 08:26 -!- StopAndDecrypt [~StopAndDe@unaffiliated/stopanddecrypt] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 08:27 < michaelfolkson> If there is any point to Litecoin it is for testing stuff with real money in advance of Bitcoin. And perhaps being there if Bitcoin fails technically for some bizarre reason that doesn't also kill Litecoin 08:30 < waxwing> yes the first round being pre-processable so that it's kinda- one round is one of the big selling points of musig2. that's very cool. 08:37 -!- jadi [~jadi@213.207.201.119] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:38 -!- jadi [~jadi@213.207.201.119] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:43 -!- jadi [~jadi@213.207.201.119] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 08:48 -!- DeanGuss [~dean@gateway/tor-sasl/deanguss] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:49 -!- DeanGuss [~dean@gateway/tor-sasl/deanguss] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:49 -!- mryandao_ [~mryandao@gateway/tor-sasl/mryandao] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:50 -!- ghost43 [~daer@gateway/tor-sasl/daer] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 08:51 -!- mryandao [~mryandao@gateway/tor-sasl/mryandao] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:52 -!- ghost43 [~daer@gateway/tor-sasl/daer] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:52 -!- jb55 [~jb55@gateway/tor-sasl/jb55] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:52 -!- bitdex [~bitdex@gateway/tor-sasl/bitdex] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:52 -!- yanmaani [~yanmaani@gateway/tor-sasl/yanmaani] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:54 -!- bitdex [~bitdex@gateway/tor-sasl/bitdex] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:27 -!- jadi [~jadi@93.117.189.253] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:28 -!- yanmaani [~yanmaani@gateway/tor-sasl/yanmaani] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:31 -!- jadi [~jadi@93.117.189.253] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 09:32 -!- jb55 [~jb55@gateway/tor-sasl/jb55] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:37 -!- Setherson [~Setherson@108-255-110-61.lightspeed.tukrga.sbcglobal.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:38 -!- Evilqubit [~Evilqubit@185.81.141.76] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:38 < Setherson> Hello, Everyone! 09:39 -!- Evilqubit [~Evilqubit@185.81.141.76] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:51 -!- wk057 [~wk@unaffiliated/wizkid057] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:01 -!- wk057 [~wk@unaffiliated/wizkid057] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:13 -!- TheoStorm [~TheoStorm@ptr-g0z44tthly98nc7ei84.18120a2.ip6.access.telenet.be] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:39 -!- TheoStorm [~TheoStorm@ptr-g0z44tthly98nc7ei84.18120a2.ip6.access.telenet.be] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 10:50 -!- son0p [~son0p@181.136.122.143] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:04 -!- jesseposner [~jp@2601:645:200:162f:2500:51ed:8c03:fc1b] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:33 -!- a5m0 [~a5m0@unaffiliated/a5m0] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 11:41 -!- a5m0 [~a5m0@unaffiliated/a5m0] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:46 -!- TheoStorm [~TheoStorm@ptr-g0z44tthly98nc7ei84.18120a2.ip6.access.telenet.be] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:17 -!- son0p [~son0p@181.136.122.143] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 12:19 -!- son0p [~son0p@181.136.122.143] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:35 -!- CryptoDavid [uid14990@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-txnimirlavqaqrgd] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] 13:06 < Setherson> Not a very chatty bunch...lol 13:21 -!- belcher_ [~belcher@unaffiliated/belcher] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:24 -!- belcher [~belcher@unaffiliated/belcher] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 13:34 -!- belcher_ is now known as belcher 13:42 -!- dllud [~dllud@unaffiliated/dllud] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 13:55 -!- dllud [~dllud@unaffiliated/dllud] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:55 < queip> oh no, a mortal entered our plane. seize him! 14:13 -!- DeanWeen [~dean@gateway/tor-sasl/deanguss] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:18 -!- DeanGuss [~dean@gateway/tor-sasl/deanguss] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:34 -!- son0p [~son0p@181.136.122.143] has quit [Quit: leaving] 14:43 -!- ddustin [~ddustin@unaffiliated/ddustin] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 15:00 -!- laptop_ [~laptop@ppp-3-140.leed-a-1.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:07 -!- DeanWeen [~dean@gateway/tor-sasl/deanguss] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:07 -!- DeanWeen [~dean@gateway/tor-sasl/deanguss] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 15:09 -!- tromp [~tromp@dhcp-077-249-230-040.chello.nl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:20 -!- tromp [~tromp@dhcp-077-249-230-040.chello.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 15:33 < kanzure> michaelfolkson: python-bitcoinlib is forked from a thing that was itself incorporated into bitcoin core's functional test framework 15:33 < kanzure> or the thing it was forked from was from code in the bitcoin core repository, i forget the lineage exactly 15:33 < kanzure> but python-bitcoinlib came later 15:34 -!- ddustin [~ddustin@unaffiliated/ddustin] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:35 -!- ddustin [~ddustin@unaffiliated/ddustin] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 15:39 -!- tromp [~tromp@dhcp-077-249-230-040.chello.nl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:46 -!- tromp [~tromp@dhcp-077-249-230-040.chello.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 15:47 -!- tromp [~tromp@dhcp-077-249-230-040.chello.nl] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:47 -!- tromp [~tromp@dhcp-077-249-230-040.chello.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 15:51 -!- tromp [~tromp@dhcp-077-249-230-040.chello.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 15:53 -!- ddustin [~ddustin@unaffiliated/ddustin] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:53 -!- gleb [~gleb@178.150.137.228] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds] 15:54 -!- ddustin [~ddustin@unaffiliated/ddustin] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:09 -!- tromp [~tromp@dhcp-077-249-230-040.chello.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:15 -!- glozow [uid453516@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-tllfqodsrhuggeuj] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity] 16:17 -!- dllud [~dllud@unaffiliated/dllud] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 16:19 -!- dllud [~dllud@unaffiliated/dllud] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:20 -!- Setherson [~Setherson@108-255-110-61.lightspeed.tukrga.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 16:20 -!- Setherson [~Setherson@108-255-110-61.lightspeed.tukrga.sbcglobal.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:26 -!- ddustin [~ddustin@unaffiliated/ddustin] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:26 -!- ddustin [~ddustin@unaffiliated/ddustin] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:30 -!- Guyver2 [Guyver@guyver2.xs4all.nl] has quit [Quit: Going offline, see ya! 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