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10:05 < pinheadmz> jonasschnelli / anyone familiar with the BIP324 (encrypted peer services) proposal. I'm wondering if static keys are required to prevent MITM between nodes? I don't understand gmax's comment "you authenticate a hash of the session key inside the encrypted session." If there's MITM can't this also be faked?
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10:13 < jonasschnelli> pinheadmz: BIP324 has no MITM protection. Its opportunistic encryption that allows building authentication schemes (like BIP150 / static keys) on top
10:14 < jonasschnelli> However, an attacker needs A) to actively observe and B) has to take the risk to be detected (assume two peers compare the session-ID over the phone or so)
10:16 < sipa> pinheadmz: gmax means "you use an actual authentication protocol (whjch isn't part of BIP324) to verify both sides have the same session key hash"
10:16 < pinheadmz> gotcha ty
10:16 < pinheadmz> sipa  like reading a session key over the phone? :-)
10:16 < sipa> if there is a MitM, the two (honest) partners have a distinct session hash
10:16 < pinheadmz> I see
10:16 < sipa> pinheadmz: that is a possible way yes, though not what i had in mind :)
10:16 < pinheadmz> like Signal "safety numbers" etc - must be compared and verified out of band
10:17 < sipa> pinheadmz: we've worked on and off for a few years on a secret authentication protocol
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10:18 < pinheadmz> and my understanding is that LN nodes do have static public keys, but a confirmed transaction is required to trust such a key from a remote peer?
10:18 < sipa> the idea is: one side has a private key, other side has a public key; the public side can verify whether or not the private side's key matches their public key, without anyone learning anything else
10:18 < sipa> LN nodes have observable identities, that makes it easy ;)
10:18 < sipa> bitcoin nodes don't
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10:19 < sipa> pinheadmz: https://gist.github.com/d7dcaae0419f10e5be0270fada84c20b is an old writeup
10:20 < sipa> the protocol details are outdated, but the text to explain the purpose isn't
10:20 < pinheadmz> oh interesting thanks
10:20 < pinheadmz> how are LN nodes more observable than bitcoin nodes?
10:21 < pinheadmz> Like, an LN node has pubkey:IP - do those get gossiped? or do i only trust a pubkey given to me directly by a peer
10:21 < sipa> they have an identity
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10:22 < sipa> pinheadmz: you make connections to peers you know in LN
10:22 < pinheadmz> that makes sense, i see why bitcoin nodes dont need identities but could they? just to ensure secure channels without MITM?
10:23 < sipa> e.g. you don't want to be able to track nodes around as their IP changes
10:23 < pinheadmz> right ok
10:23 < sipa> yes, of course you could, but we don't want to :)
10:23 < pinheadmz> gotcha
10:24 < pinheadmz> do LN nodes gossip addrs like bitcoin nodes? but with pubkey:IP instead of just ip ?
10:24 < jnsu> s
10:24 < sipa> i don't know the details, but i believe yes
10:24 < sipa> as crawler sites list the pubkeys
10:25 < sipa> this countersign protocol allows defining a static identity for nodes, but one that is completely unobservable to anyone who doesn't already know their pubkey
10:25 < sipa> so you can ask "hey, are you X?", but you can't ask "who are you?"
10:25 < sipa> and the side that answers doesn't even see X
10:26 < sipa> it's pretty neat :)
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10:29 < pinheadmz> sweet, thanks
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10:31 < pinheadmz> https://github.com/lightningnetwork/lightning-rfc/blob/master/07-routing-gossip.md#the-node_announcement-message
10:31 < pinheadmz> "To avoid trivial denial of service attacks, nodes not associated with an already known channel are ignored."
10:31 < pinheadmz> so it seems LN node static pubkeys are kinda ignored unless you can prove you have a channel open
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--- Log closed Thu Feb 04 00:00:35 2021