--- Log opened Wed Feb 17 00:00:32 2021 00:07 -!- jeremyrubin [~jr@024-176-247-182.res.spectrum.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 00:24 -!- forrestv [forrestv@unaffiliated/forrestv] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 00:25 -!- isis_ [~isis@abulafia.patternsinthevoid.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 00:28 -!- forrestv [forrestv@unaffiliated/forrestv] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:31 -!- isis_ [~isis@abulafia.patternsinthevoid.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:41 -!- mryandao [~mryandao@gateway/tor-sasl/mryandao] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:42 -!- Guyver2 [Guyver@guyver2.xs4all.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:44 -!- laptop [~laptop@ppp-3-9.leed-a-1.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:15 -!- bitdex [~bitdex@gateway/tor-sasl/bitdex] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 01:28 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:51 -!- setpill [~setpill@unaffiliated/setpill] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:52 -!- tromp [~tromp@dhcp-077-249-230-040.chello.nl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:55 -!- rusty [~rusty@pdpc/supporter/bronze/rusty] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:56 -!- TheoStorm [~TheoStorm@97.69-247-81.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 01:57 -!- TheoStorm [~TheoStorm@97.69-247-81.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:59 -!- mryandao [~mryandao@gateway/tor-sasl/mryandao] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:00 -!- mryandao [~mryandao@gateway/tor-sasl/mryandao] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 02:09 -!- mryandao [~mryandao@gateway/tor-sasl/mryandao] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:10 -!- tromp [~tromp@dhcp-077-249-230-040.chello.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 02:18 -!- setpill [~setpill@unaffiliated/setpill] has quit [Quit: o/] 02:19 -!- mryandao [~mryandao@gateway/tor-sasl/mryandao] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 02:27 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:51 -!- mryandao [~mryandao@gateway/tor-sasl/mryandao] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:52 -!- mryandao [~mryandao@gateway/tor-sasl/mryandao] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 03:10 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 03:14 -!- jadi [~jadi@91.184.69.122] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:24 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:25 -!- lestrrat [~lestrrat@139.28.218.148] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 03:25 -!- setpill [~setpill@unaffiliated/setpill] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 03:26 -!- jadi [~jadi@91.184.69.122] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 03:27 -!- setpill [~setpill@unaffiliated/setpill] has quit [Client Quit] 03:30 -!- setpill [~setpill@unaffiliated/setpill] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 03:32 -!- rusty [~rusty@pdpc/supporter/bronze/rusty] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 03:35 -!- setpill [~setpill@unaffiliated/setpill] has quit [Quit: o/] 03:37 -!- afilini [~user@gateway/tor-sasl/afilini] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 03:40 -!- afilini [~user@gateway/tor-sasl/afilini] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 03:40 -!- afilini [~user@gateway/tor-sasl/afilini] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:41 -!- afilini [~user@gateway/tor-sasl/afilini] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 03:44 -!- mryandao [~mryandao@gateway/tor-sasl/mryandao] has quit [Quit: ZNC 1.8.1 - https://znc.in] 03:44 -!- mryandao [~mryandao@gateway/tor-sasl/mryandao] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 03:45 -!- mryandao [~mryandao@gateway/tor-sasl/mryandao] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:46 -!- mryandao [~mryandao@gateway/tor-sasl/mryandao] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 03:54 -!- morcos [~morcos@gateway/tor-sasl/morcos] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:55 -!- morcos [~morcos@gateway/tor-sasl/morcos] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 04:05 -!- zwopdrek [~zwopdrek@gateway/tor-sasl/zwopdrek] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 04:12 < zwopdrek> Had a discussion today about invoice reuse in bitcoin. Was wondering if making it consensus-invalid for new invoice types (e.g. p2tr) has been considered. 04:20 < queip> it's for LN? 04:20 -!- TheoStorm [~TheoStorm@97.69-247-81.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 04:22 -!- afilini [~user@gateway/tor-sasl/afilini] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 04:24 -!- afilini [~user@gateway/tor-sasl/afilini] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 04:29 < zwopdrek> queip: If that was in response to me, I meant invoices as in BIP-179 style terminology ie. "address" in old-style terminology. 04:52 -!- setpill [~setpill@unaffiliated/setpill] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 04:54 -!- tromp [~tromp@dhcp-077-249-230-040.chello.nl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:03 -!- jadijadi [~jadi@91.184.69.122] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 05:05 -!- jadi [~jadi@91.184.69.122] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 05:06 -!- jonatack [~jon@37.171.131.157] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 05:10 -!- jadi [~jadi@91.184.69.122] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 05:11 -!- jadijadi [~jadi@91.184.69.122] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds] 05:13 -!- afilini [~user@gateway/tor-sasl/afilini] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:13 -!- afilini [~user@gateway/tor-sasl/afilini] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 05:15 -!- tromp [~tromp@dhcp-077-249-230-040.chello.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 05:46 -!- Zachoz [~Zachoz@139.28.218.148] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 05:48 -!- kenshi84_ [~kenshi84@w0109-49-135-40-13.uqwimax.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 05:54 -!- kenshi84 [~kenshi84@w0109-49-135-40-13.uqwimax.jp] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 06:10 < andytoshi> i think unfortunately(?) LN has taken the word "invoice" so if you use it in place of "address" you'll have trouble communicating 06:10 < andytoshi> but aside from that 06:10 < andytoshi> zwopdrek: no, i think we briefly considered making it illegal in taproot but dismissed it pretty quickly (and nobody picked it up) 06:10 < andytoshi> the problem is that it requires an ongoing ever-growing accumulator for validators 06:11 < andytoshi> and ultimately there isn't _really_ a big benefit 06:12 < andytoshi> and it may even discourage taproot adoption :( 06:12 < andytoshi> i mean, as far as "privacy loss by bad wallet behavior" it's probably the biggest one ... but it's dwarfed by the information available in the transaction graph 06:19 -!- jadi [~jadi@91.184.69.122] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 06:26 -!- jadi [~jadi@185.197.71.29] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 06:44 -!- jadi [~jadi@185.197.71.29] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:47 < belcher> the privacy benefits of avoiding address reuse are pretty big, but the ever-growing accumulator kills the idea of making it a rule 06:48 < belcher> theres a paper somewhere which put address reuse as the biggest privacy leak, but not the only one of course 06:56 -!- jadi [~jadi@185.197.71.29] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:23 -!- ghost43 [~daer@gateway/tor-sasl/daer] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:24 < zwopdrek> The accumulator problem also occurred to me while I was outside 😅 07:25 -!- ghost43 [~daer@gateway/tor-sasl/daer] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:26 -!- ghost43 [~daer@gateway/tor-sasl/daer] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:27 -!- ghost43_ [~daer@gateway/tor-sasl/daer] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 07:27 < zwopdrek> I'm not exactly sure how it would discourage taproot adoption, though 07:28 < zwopdrek> If people need to change their behaviour to work with it, then that is probably a good thing? 07:31 < zwopdrek> Though it would open up a hypothetical DoS attack vector where a malicious entity sends higher-fee, lower-paying txes to addresses that are paid out to by unmined txes 🤔 07:33 < andytoshi> zwopdrek: that's an interesting attack 07:34 < andytoshi> and re "people would need to change their behaviour" sadly some people *cough*blockchain.info*cough* still have not upgraded to segwit and are effectively spamming the network with low-efficiency transactions 07:34 -!- davec [~davec@072-183-054-196.res.spectrum.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:35 < zwopdrek> But they would not be using the new invoice (address) type 07:35 < zwopdrek> So it wouldn't cause conflict in that sense 07:37 < zwopdrek> It's only when they would upgrade to support new address types that they would need to change their logic 07:38 < andytoshi> right .. my point is that they'll be even less likely to upgrade if they need to change their logic 07:38 < andytoshi> the changes for them to use segwit are basically trivial 07:38 < andytoshi> and they can't be arsed 07:38 < zwopdrek> Ahh, yes, you are right 07:40 < andytoshi> lol, i was hoping you'd have some smackdown argument for me 07:41 < andytoshi> in any case .. i think ultimately the reason not to do this comes down to the accumulator which makes it technically infeasible 07:41 < andytoshi> if it weren't for that there'd at least be a faction of people pushing for it 07:41 < andytoshi> even if it couldn't get a lot of buy-in 07:42 -!- proofofkeags [~proofofke@97-118-232-73.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:43 < zwopdrek> "lol, i was hoping you'd have some smackdown argument for me" well I was typing out something about there always being laggards and they shouldn't dictate what's possible with upgrades, we could implement it as an opt-in flag for addresses (a la RBF), etc. but yeah, the accumulator and hypothetical DoS attack vector pretty much kill the entire concept already long before any laggards 07:43 < zwopdrek> become relevant 07:49 -!- yanmaani [~yanmaani@gateway/tor-sasl/yanmaani] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 07:49 -!- yanmaani [~yanmaani@gateway/tor-sasl/yanmaani] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:49 < zwopdrek> I'm not sure the attack is truly feasible in the long run (too costly to exploit in theory) but the game theory requires that all wallets have mitigations built in, so that's not realistic either. 08:01 -!- yanmaani [~yanmaani@gateway/tor-sasl/yanmaani] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:04 -!- tromp [~tromp@dhcp-077-249-230-040.chello.nl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:08 -!- jadijadi [~jadi@185.197.71.29] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:08 < harding> You could make address reuse significantly less convenient by disallowing blocks containing transactions spending more than one input with the same previous scriptPubKey. Simpler, more cacheable, and probaly almost as effective, you could make that a transaction-level rule only (so no tx can contain more than one input with the same prevScript). For more flexibility but still discouragement, you could just make prevScript reuse result in 08:08 < harding> higher transaction weights (requiring paying more fees although also reducing block capacity). 08:10 -!- jadi [~jadi@185.197.71.29] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 08:13 -!- yanmaani [~yanmaani@gateway/tor-sasl/yanmaani] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:13 < queip> harding: how it interacts with the fact that sometimes people are dusted e.g. by some bots? 08:14 < harding> queip: it makes spending the dust harder and more expensive, but if the wallet just ignores the dust, it doesn't create any problems for the user. 08:18 < sipa> rational mining logic under such a rule would just delay the same-spK-spend transactions, to spread it ovef multiple blocks 08:23 < harding> sipa: for the first idea, yes. For the second idea (tx level policy/rule only), that's not possible. The goal is to make it inconvenient for the user of reused addresses, who now can't use multiple inputs to pay for something in a single transaction and either needs to split that payment into multiple transactions or create multiple transactions each paying unique addresses and then use those tx outputs as inputs for their single payment 08:23 < harding> transaction. That's where the third idea helps, it reduces the inconvenience and the byte overhead of the multiple transactions but still enacts a vbyte penalty. 08:25 -!- tromp [~tromp@dhcp-077-249-230-040.chello.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:32 < zwopdrek> Interesting idea. Vbyte penalty would have to be chosen such that it penalizes less than doing separate txes. 08:35 < zwopdrek> Would also depend on how many people are actually currently spending different utxos tied to the same addr in the same tx 08:36 < queip> although.. reuse in form of putting your donations QR for everyone to see (see how many you got yet), in logo and such, are interesting uses cases to be hones. 08:37 < queip> do we have anything else that allows you to permanently show someone where to donate, and also everyone to see how much you got there 08:37 < queip> other than .bit onion site with LN and with signing each given out invoice and timestamping them all together their history in git-like structure 08:42 -!- jadijadi [~jadi@185.197.71.29] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 08:43 -!- jadi [~jadi@185.197.71.29] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:47 -!- jadi [~jadi@185.197.71.29] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds] 08:55 < zwopdrek> I don't think we're talking about adding addr reuse prevention measures to existing addr types, so people could keep using legacy addr types for those usecases 08:56 < zwopdrek> Unless harding's ideas would apply across the board 08:59 -!- Kiminuo [~Kiminuo@141.98.103.196] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:05 -!- sr_gi [~sr_gi@static-125-62-230-77.ipcom.comunitel.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:05 -!- sr_gi [~sr_gi@static-125-62-230-77.ipcom.comunitel.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:27 -!- CryptoDavid [uid14990@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-uqeypeinwequuwyd] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:32 -!- shesek [~shesek@unaffiliated/shesek] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:42 -!- flag [~flag@net-5-94-131-164.cust.vodafonedsl.it] has quit [Quit: leaving] 09:53 -!- kenshi84 [~kenshi84@w0109-49-135-40-13.uqwimax.jp] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 10:00 -!- flag [~flag@net-93-66-71-159.cust.vodafonedsl.it] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:18 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@unaffiliated/aaronvanw] has 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