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15:15 < jeremyrubin> roconnor: harding: <cont from ##taproot-activation>
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15:16 < jeremyrubin> The point being that we can
15:16 < roconnor> I mean, I think i see what you are saing.
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15:16 < jeremyrubin> * cannot prove out from armchair that a change meets the needs of to-be-written software
15:16 < jeremyrubin> and it would be good to have a evaluation ground where we can see if useful software has any challenges being written
15:16 < roconnor> TBH I'd sort of want a do-over with both relative and absolute locktimes using the taproot annex.
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15:18 < roconnor> that said no one does serious development for a non-existant platform.
15:18 < jeremyrubin> trillion dollar market cap we should do better :P
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15:19 < jeremyrubin> roconnor: have you checked out the sapio stuff yet?
15:19 < jeremyrubin> I'm trying to figure out a release plan, would love your feedback before then if you've time
15:19 < roconnor> ha no kidding.  Okay even with an existing platform there is still no serious development.
15:20 < roconnor> With a  trillion dollar market cap you'd think we'd have package relay by now.
15:20 < roconnor> I have not seen the sapio stuff.
15:20 < harding> jeremyrubin: re: your question yesterday about attaching files to bitcoin-dev ML, my PGP sigs go through all the time, you can at least attach small files.
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15:23 < harding> Agree that it's really hard to get devs building on top of proposed features.  Again, every project has a limited amount of time and they rationally want to spend it on things they can implement now.  I think maybe one partial solution to that is things like Elements/Liquid where new features can be quickly deployed and then used, although I think I saw jeremyrubin arguing against using sidechains in a different context.
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15:25 < jeremyrubin> harding: cf? Sounds like something I might say?
15:25 < jeremyrubin> harding: my solution is that I think running emulators that work based on signing txns works decently well
15:26 < harding> jeremyrubin: looks like it was in response to a specific thing: https://www.coindesk.com/bitcoin-defi-japan-smart-contracts
15:29 < jeremyrubin> Ah yeah. I think what I don't like is growing a permanent dependence on sidechains
15:29 < jeremyrubin> and then people get salty when you go after their revenue
15:29 < jeremyrubin> so I think in-band is probably better to the extent possible
15:30 < harding> That seems fair.
15:33 < aj> roconnor: yes, locktimes via the annex is on my todo list... if only i could get some consensusy things /off/ my todo list...
15:33 < jeremyrubin> aj: the real cost to the endless activation debate... cycles better spent elsewhere
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16:56 < roconnor> Do you have specific plans for annex formatting?
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17:08 < aj> roconnor: no, i wanted to include the assert-ancestor-at-height-has-hash behaviour as well though (ie, specify a height and the last k bytes of the block hash at that height)
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17:12 < jeremyrubin> aj: doesn't that break monotonicity?
17:15 < aj> jeremyrubin: it means tx's can become invalid over a reorg; monotonicity doesn't seem the right word for that though? could recover it in the same way as for coinbase spends though -- don't allow referencing a hash that's more recent than 100 blocks ago
17:16 < jeremyrubin> i think validation monotonicity is used in some contexts...
17:16 < jeremyrubin> that the txns can always be reshuffled onto a new chain without introducing fault
17:17 < jeremyrubin> I agree that +100 blocks doesn't introduce new risk as it matches coinbase behavior
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17:20 < jeremyrubin> aj: also an interesting question on that is if you use a same or unique hash function to prevent block header introspection?
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17:22 < aj> jeremyrubin: the finality logic (for nseq/nlocktime) already kicks stuff out of the mempool if a reorg goes too far
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--- Log closed Sun Mar 07 00:00:49 2021