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I have a question wrt to 'Then in principle, we could do a very simple sort of covenant: one where the user provides the hash of all the transaction data and the script checks a signature on this using both' 10:43 < Chris_Stewart_5> Are you referring to the BIP143 hash for signature checking? 10:43 < Chris_Stewart_5> https://medium.com/blockstream/cat-and-schnorr-tricks-i-faf1b59bd298 10:45 -!- roconnor [~roconnor@host-45-58-192-182.dyn.295.ca] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 10:46 -!- jonatack [~jon@37.173.131.107] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 10:47 -!- jonatack [~jon@37.173.131.107] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:48 < andytoshi> Chris_Stewart_5: yeah 10:48 < andytoshi> err, in that post i think i'm using bip341 10:51 < Chris_Stewart_5> andytoshi: Ok, so basically your transaction can have a convenant wrt to anything that is _not_ committed to in that digest? At least wrt to the hypothetical situation of having OP_CSFS (checksigfromstack) but no OP_CAT? 10:52 < Chris_Stewart_5> Basically, you are losign me here 10:53 < Chris_Stewart_5> >It turns out this sort of covenant can’t work, for a technical reason: the transaction data that CHECKSIG checks always includes the txid of the previous transaction 10:54 < Chris_Stewart_5> The previous transaction (crediting/funding tx) should be pre-determined as it has to be referenced in the outpoints, no? 10:54 * jeremyrubin coughs in checktemplateverify 10:58 -!- jonatack [~jon@37.173.131.107] has quit [Quit: jonatack] 11:01 < jeremyrubin> andytoshi: not to be a citations-lease annoyance, but I would be happy to provide you to a bunch of links about vaults that might make sense to add to your post 11:03 < andytoshi> jeremyrubin: yeah for sure 11:04 < jeremyrubin> 1) the "multisig evil covnenants" is presented https://medium.com/@jeremyrubin/regulating-bitcoin-by-mining-the-regulator-miner-attack-c8fd51185b78 11:04 < andytoshi> Chris_Stewart_5: the previous transaction is what defines the covenant 11:04 < jeremyrubin> 2) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UgIEJeJg_ik presents vaults with staging 11:04 < andytoshi> i'd rather not cite a youtube vid because i can't quickly skim them 11:04 < andytoshi> so i don't have any way of determining their content 11:05 < jeremyrubin> gotcha -- it's a live demo of software for managing smart contract vaults -- you can link to https://youtu.be/UgIEJeJg_ik?t=330 for that segment 11:06 < Chris_Stewart_5> In the words of the infamous homer simpson, doh! 11:06 < jeremyrubin> 3) MES vaults https://hackingdistributed.com/2016/02/26/how-to-implement-secure-bitcoin-vaults/ 11:07 < Chris_Stewart_5> Also maybe this was just my lack of understanding, but I didn't realize OP_CAT can be used to _destruct_ concatenations along with construct them 11:07 < jeremyrubin> 4) Revault/Python Vault https://github.com/re-vault/ https://github.com/kanzure/python-vaults 11:08 < Chris_Stewart_5> Overall it's a great blog post series andytoshi, very dense and filled with information, thank you! 11:09 < jeremyrubin> 5) sapio VR talk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4vDuttlImPc / https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1X4AGNXJ5yCeHRrf5sa9DarWfDyEkm6fFUlrcIRQtUw4/edit#slide=id.g8bddfc449f_0_271 11:11 < andytoshi> Chris_Stewart_5: thanks :P i'll take that as a poke for me to finally write part 3 (how to hack around lack of sighash_anyprevout) 11:11 < andytoshi> MES vaults are already cited 11:14 < jeremyrubin> THis might be an easier to digest link https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1XDiZOz52XyJc4LDSbiD9_JAaJobyF5QDGtR3O9qD7yg/edit#slide=id.g6e50b24244_1_129 and slide 8 too for a link to code for bitcoin core 11:15 < jeremyrubin> transcript: https://diyhpl.us/wiki/transcripts/ctv-bip-review-workshop/ 11:15 < jeremyrubin> (from the Feb SF CTV Workshop) 11:15 < andytoshi> lol maybe i should just link to these -wizards logs 11:16 < jeremyrubin> The last point I'd make is that roconnor's "just do cat and checksig" proposal v.s. CTV is kinda funny because CTV was particularly designed to work nicely with OP_CAT s.t. you can pass parameters in to dynamically contstruct outputs 11:16 < andytoshi> jeremyrubin: if you'd like to write a whole paragraph between the "In May 2019" and "For several years" i'd be willing to insert it in https://raw.githubusercontent.com/apoelstra/blog-posts/master/2021-01-24--schnorr-tricks-2.md ... but regardless i'll add a sentence or two with some of these links 11:17 < jeremyrubin> So part of why (IMO) it fell flat is that CTV + CAT is simpler than CAT + CHECKSIGFROMSTACK 11:17 < andytoshi> oh that's a neat point 11:17 < jeremyrubin> so the goal of "do this simpler thing" was not simpler 11:18 < Chris_Stewart_5> one nit from the blog post, 'transaction hash' is sort of vague. I'm not sure if you are targetting less sophisticated users or something, but it would be nice to know _which_ hash? Tx hash could mean txid in my mind, which is what you aren't referring to i believe? 11:18 < jeremyrubin> i had a similar convo with BlueMatt a year or so ago about covenants for payment pools -- not sure where matt's head is on it now, but you can do all the templating logic to construct your next txn, and it turns out no matter what you need something like CTV to finally enforce it 11:19 < jeremyrubin> and CTV doesn't (ab)use the signature system, which is OK because why bother with EC math to effectively just check a hash 11:21 < jeremyrubin> it's not exactly citable since repo is still closed, but I'm hoping to get https://github.com/sapio-lang/sapio/invitations releasable by the end of the month (just added you) 11:21 < andytoshi> Chris_Stewart_5: yeah, good point, i'm (usually) referring to sighash 11:21 < andytoshi> which is a bit obscure and i shuold be explicit about it 11:21 < jeremyrubin> it's built to be able to handle both CTV-like and recursive covenants 11:22 < andytoshi> jeremyrubin: perhaps you could write a blog post describing how ctv would super-power cat 11:22 < andytoshi> and be strictly better than checksigfromstack+cat (if that is indeed your view) 11:22 < jeremyrubin> I mean it's in the BIP LOL :) 11:22 < jeremyrubin> https://github.com/bitcoin/bips/blob/master/bip-0119.mediawiki 11:23 < andytoshi> oh lol ok 11:24 < jeremyrubin> I'm not positive that OP_CAT + CTV enables recursion though. I don't think I ever proved that it does 11:24 < jeremyrubin> Which is sort of intentional. 11:24 < jeremyrubin> There's a archive post (I'll find somewhere) about designing CTV to enable a minimum amount 11:25 < jeremyrubin> and then making it flexible to permit extending it as a base opcode when we want more 11:25 < jeremyrubin> E.g., if we want recursion we should add OP_SPENDING_FROM_INPUT 11:26 < andytoshi> you can do a hacky sort of recursion with just cat :P 11:26 < andytoshi> and taproot 11:26 < jeremyrubin> I was trying to follow it exactly but it seems it didn't work end-to-end? 11:27 < andytoshi> if it doesn't work i'm interested to hear it 11:27 < jeremyrubin> maybe I misread but you seemed to be saying it doesn't work 11:27 < andytoshi> it'll be a while before i can work on implementing it, i'm working on stuff on elements now where i have real checksigfromstack and can directly do recursion 11:28 < andytoshi> jeremyrubin: i can do finite state machines 11:28 < jeremyrubin> lemme re-read 11:28 < andytoshi> so i don't have full recursion, but i have enough recursion to do vaults 11:28 -!- jonatack [~jon@37.173.131.107] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:28 < andytoshi> it's in the second post 11:28 < andytoshi> https://www.wpsoftware.net/andrew/blog/cat-and-schnorr-tricks-ii.html 11:29 < jeremyrubin> yeah that's the main one I was looking at 11:29 < andytoshi> the "transaction preimaging" section is the hacky scheme 11:30 < jeremyrubin> BTW you should try out Sapio -- I'm still figuring out licensing crap -- but you can impl the CTVEmulator trait for CheckSigFromStackCovenenatScript and it will work on elements for FSM programming today 11:30 < BlueMatt> jeremyrubin: "not sure where matt's head is on it now" <-- still think we should deliberately enable recursion so that we can get the benefits of it and focus on making it clean, vs accidentally having it via cat, but, eh, I dont have time to work on it, so I'm not gonna stand in anything's way. 11:31 < andytoshi> the benefit of cat is just that it's such an insanely small diff 11:31 < jeremyrubin> andytoshi: shastream op is better tho imo :/ 11:32 < jeremyrubin> also a small diff :) 11:32 -!- justan0theruser [~justanoth@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:32 < andytoshi> mm i think it's 3 ops :P initialize, stream, finalize? 11:33 < andytoshi> maybe 2 11:33 < jeremyrubin> nah 11:33 < jeremyrubin> doesn't have to be 11:33 < andytoshi> and people would want you to do it for all the hashes, for completeness 11:33 < jeremyrubin> you can just have a b c 3 shatream 11:33 < andytoshi> i guess not, you can get hash256 by double-sha'ing 11:33 < andytoshi> and ripemd160 is probably reasonable to just stop supporting in new stuff cuz it's too short 11:33 < jeremyrubin> sha1 tho 11:34 < andytoshi> that's probably even easier to refuse to support :P 11:34 < jeremyrubin> in case you want to check if two things are the same but maybe a little bit different 11:34 -!- justanotheruser [~justanoth@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 11:34 -!- rockhouse1 [~rockhouse@unaffiliated/rockhouse] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:35 < jeremyrubin> andytoshi: " 11:35 < jeremyrubin> there is no way (that I can find) to compute 11:35 < jeremyrubin> a taproot commitment in Script+`CAT`, at least not without knowing the discrete 11:35 < jeremyrubin> logarithm of the commitment. 11:35 < jeremyrubin> oops line formatting :/ 11:35 -!- Emcy_ [~Emcy@unaffiliated/emcy] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:35 -!- ryan-c` [ryan-c@znc.rya.nc] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:35 -!- pinheadmz_ [~pinheadmz@hns-contributor.dev] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:35 < jeremyrubin> but uh that sounds like you're saying it can't be done which is where I got confused 11:35 -!- Emcy_ [~Emcy@unaffiliated/emcy] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:36 -!- Emcy_ [~Emcy@unaffiliated/emcy] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:36 < jeremyrubin> BTW the "value switching" is how CTV is intended to be used w/ taproot 11:36 < andytoshi> ah yes, so you _can_ do the limited form of recursion where you're always sending back to the same taproot output 11:36 < andytoshi> and that's enough to do a lot 11:36 -!- Hansie3 [~Hansie@195.159.29.126] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:37 -!- justinmoon_ [~quassel@157.245.122.126] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:37 -!- IGHOR_ [~quassel@176.121.4.135] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:38 -!- Chris_St1 [~Chris_Ste@unaffiliated/chris-stewart-5/x-3612383] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:38 -!- grubles_ [~unknown@96.30.199.172] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:38 -!- grubles_ [~unknown@96.30.199.172] has quit [Changing host] 11:38 -!- grubles_ [~unknown@unaffiliated/grubles] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:38 -!- harrigan [~harrigan@ptr-93-89-242-235.ip.airwire.ie] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:38 < jeremyrubin> c/f value switching (I think I talked more about it than have slides, but that's what is shown here https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1BuIJj8KkGFM8uOCXuQDgnwTLOHyUM72j6ofrkxwj_qg/edit#slide=id.g5a612b6242_0_418) 11:39 < jeremyrubin> again no need to cite all this stuff but I think maybe useful refs you could have missed :) 11:40 < jeremyrubin> ah citable in the coshv BIP https://github.com/JeremyRubin/bips/blob/op-checkoutputshashverify/bip-coshv.mediawiki#the-following-script-is-a-minimal-data-push-of-32-bytes 11:40 < jeremyrubin> "In any case, a user is more likely to, given Tapscript's API, compile any code with multiple OP_CHECKOUTPUTSHASHVERIFY operations into separate branches. " 11:42 -!- thrasher`_ [~thrasher@173.209.42.7] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:42 -!- Netsplit *.net <-> *.split quits: thrasher`, Hansie, rockhouse, IGHOR, pinheadmz, Emcy, Chris_Stewart_5, bswartz, shesek, harrigan-, (+6 more, use /NETSPLIT to show all of them) 11:42 -!- ryan-c` is now known as ryan-c 11:42 -!- rockhouse1 is now known as rockhouse 11:42 -!- Hansie3 is now known as Hansie 11:45 -!- nickler [~nickler@static.219.205.69.159.clients.your-server.de] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:45 -!- spinza [~spin@102.132.245.16] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:45 -!- CubicEarth [~CubicEart@c-67-168-1-172.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds] 11:46 -!- Chris_St1 [~Chris_Ste@unaffiliated/chris-stewart-5/x-3612383] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 2.8] 11:47 -!- Chris_Stewart_5 [~Chris_Ste@unaffiliated/chris-stewart-5/x-3612383] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:47 -!- pinheadmz_ [~pinheadmz@hns-contributor.dev] has quit [Quit: ZNC 1.8.2+deb1+bionic2 - https://znc.in] 11:47 -!- spinza [~spin@102.132.245.16] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:48 -!- CubicEarth [~CubicEart@c-67-168-1-172.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:48 -!- adiabat_ [~adiabat@63.209.32.102] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:49 -!- shesek [~shesek@164.90.217.137] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:49 -!- shesek [~shesek@164.90.217.137] has quit [Changing host] 11:49 -!- shesek [~shesek@unaffiliated/shesek] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:50 -!- pinheadmz [~pinheadmz@hns-contributor.dev] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:50 -!- marcoagn1 [~user@2001:8a0:ffc6:8700:fbe1:d95d:7692:d3c7] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:51 -!- bswartz [~bswartz@76-230-155-140.lightspeed.rlghnc.sbcglobal.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 11:51 -!- bswartz [~bswartz@76-230-155-140.lightspeed.rlghnc.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Changing host] 11:51 -!- bswartz [~bswartz@unaffiliated/bswartz] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:04 < darosior> Fwiw regarding revault we moved from re-vault to https://github.com/revault . Reading the blog posts now, interestingly i was thinking last week that we could emulate Revault's cosigning servers with something like a customizable CTV and NOINPUT but that's handwavy.. 12:04 < jeremyrubin> darosior: I have the oposite setup 12:05 < jeremyrubin> I make Sapio (soon (TM)) have a CTV EMulator that is pluggable with either CTV or a configurable signing server federation :) 12:06 < jeremyrubin> CTV Emulator is just a rust trait so anyone can make their own custom kind if they want 12:11 < darosior> jeremyrubin: what makes it the opposite setup ? 12:11 < jeremyrubin> You are looking to emulate signing servers with CTV, I am emulating CTV with signing servers :) 12:13 < darosior> Oh, yes hehe :) 12:15 < darosior> But CTV only (or a custom template flavour) does not work as our anti-replay oracles act at spending time, not pre-signing time 12:23 < jeremyrubin> for chainsplits? 12:31 < jeremyrubin> btw the idea of a CPFP feebump output is presented in good detail in a few places, the Sapio VR meetup slides have some really good animations on them https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1X4AGNXJ5yCeHRrf5sa9DarWfDyEkm6fFUlrcIRQtUw4/edit#slide=id.p 12:31 < jeremyrubin> has some cool things too w.r.t. how they work with multiple steps of a contract expanding at the same time 12:32 < jeremyrubin> you can use multiple steps to atomically pay fees for either multiple steps or no no steps 12:40 -!- mappum [sid43795@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-gzifxcwjfpyuwhgp] has quit [] 12:40 -!- Jackielove4u [uid43977@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-vulfyaligsvkvsgx] has quit [] 12:40 -!- mappum [sid43795@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-xoxptsctvbbiajkx] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:41 -!- Jackielove4u [uid43977@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-lbtetyyqbzzbklbc] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 12:49 < jeremyrubin> andytoshi: so it does look like op_cat + taproot is sufficient for something similar to CTV 12:49 < jeremyrubin> The only annoying detail is that you can't get perfect TXID immaleability 12:52 < jeremyrubin> Oh no wait, you can? 12:52 < jeremyrubin> yeah it looks like this kind of works 12:53 < jeremyrubin> The main thing you lose is being able to set sequences 12:54 < jeremyrubin> andytoshi: can you explain why we use SIGHASH_ANYONECANPAY | ALL and not just SIGHASH_ALL to restrict it to 1 input? 12:55 -!- mryandao [~mryandao@gateway/tor-sasl/mryandao] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 12:56 < jeremyrubin> it's also a bit of a PITA to satisfy this script, but I guess miniscript could do it 12:57 < jeremyrubin> err maybe for value switching it's not too bad since you don't need the arbitrary output 12:59 -!- mryandao [~mryandao@gateway/tor-sasl/mryandao] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:00 -!- mryandao [~mryandao@gateway/tor-sasl/mryandao] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:01 -!- mryandao [~mryandao@gateway/tor-sasl/mryandao] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:14 -!- roconnor [~roconnor@host-45-58-192-182.dyn.295.ca] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:23 -!- Guyver2 [Guyver@guyver2.xs4all.nl] has quit [Quit: Going offline, see ya! 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