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14:03 < nothingmuch_> waxwing: CoinParty is kind of interesting too... i think it was ignored because it's got a significant theft risk (MPC), and the terminology was really confusing, but there are some cool ideas that i think are ripe for iteration
14:06 < jeremyrubin> whats coinparty
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15:05 < nothingmuch> jeremyrubin: the setting is n users and k mixing peers ("servers" would have been a clearer term IMO), the users deposit the funds in n mp-ecdsa addresses controlled by the peers, and then the peers send back to the users. IIRC if a super-majority of peers are honest then there's no theft concern, and if a single mixing peer is honest then it is unlinkable
15:06 < jeremyrubin> ah
15:06 < nothingmuch> it's sort of half way between a coinjoin and a coinswap, the individual transactions are disjoint on chain which i think is the appealing thing
15:06 < jeremyrubin> https://github.com/sapio-lang/sapio/blob/master/sapio-contrib/src/contracts/coin_pool.rs
15:06 < jeremyrubin> you mean like this
15:07 < jeremyrubin> Can be simplified a bit
15:07 < jeremyrubin> + you can make it work in a more efficient way today than what sapio outputs with specific CTVEmulator trait impls
15:09 < nothingmuch> no, in coinpool there is no theft concern at all, and the users' individual outputs share a common ancestor
15:09 < jeremyrubin> Not how I spec'd it
15:09 < jeremyrubin> I use a arbitrary vec Clauses
15:09 < jeremyrubin> and a dif vec payouts
15:10 < jeremyrubin> so you can have a n of m host server
15:12 < nothingmuch> hmm, interesting...what use cases did you have in mind for that?
15:12 < jeremyrubin> well what'
15:13 < jeremyrubin> sorry
15:13 < jeremyrubin> I engineered it so that it can non-interactively be paid into by an untrusted third party with CTV
15:13 < jeremyrubin> Each payout can actually be a non interactively created channel
15:13 < nothingmuch> although the main appeal of CoinParty is that there is no single txo at the root, so arguably the anonymity set is as large as coinswap (and afaik it is the first such privacy protocol that was designed to blend in with normal 1 addresses)
15:14 < jeremyrubin> the N of N can only signoff on full tree updates with agreement by all parties
15:14 < jeremyrubin> and the parent of each tree could also be (with more work) a channel too
15:14 < jeremyrubin> so you essentially get the ability to create unbounded channels and have a system for cooperatively closing
15:14 < jeremyrubin> The untrusted third party could be coinbase
15:15 < jeremyrubin> Or, more fun, it could be the last N miners creating an on chain mining pool
15:15 < jeremyrubin> and then they "swap" their returns across trees
15:15 < nothingmuch> very cool
15:15 < jeremyrubin> it's basically synthesis of https://utxos.org/uses/ topics
15:16 < jeremyrubin> https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1tmvv3og8Hs-1h6JMlePmlMouycN1RM_MBWdQp7taKuw/edit#slide=id.g9b0b672a9f_1_8
15:16 < jeremyrubin> i'm probably going to do a writeup for this shortly since the Sapio tooling is getting to be good enough to start making such contracts
15:17 < jeremyrubin> CTV (https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/21702) really makes these apps work way better since they can be initiated by a single paying party w/o anyone else online
15:17 < jeremyrubin> but for now you have to run some customizable oracle signing server
15:21 < nothingmuch> i really need to find more time to play with it, at the moment i'm a little too busy with wasabi stuff, but i would really like to have a high confidence that sapio could be integrated into that in the longer term
15:22 < jeremyrubin> it's designed to be integrated with very little work
15:22 < nothingmuch> after i'm done fighting C# a rust implementation of the credential scheme is a high priority
15:22 < jeremyrubin> if you can run WASM blobs you can run sapio contracts
15:23 < nothingmuch> hmm, i have no clue about C#/wasm interop... but i expect the challenges are likely to be more conceptual, i.e. if we structure the coordinator in a way that makes it prohibitively complicated
15:24 < jeremyrubin> Yeah. there are diff ways of integrating, depending on target environ
15:25 < jeremyrubin> most likely for e.g. desktop apps you'd want an isolated sapio server that hooks in to the contract pretty deeply
15:25 < jeremyrubin> This is still an open area of research
15:25 < jeremyrubin> Sapio does have pretty awesome output types, but it's essentially like Verilog outputting a netlist for an FPGA
15:25 < jeremyrubin> firmare Coming Soon (tm)
15:26 < jeremyrubin> figuring out the right way to do this is hard, because I can make a first class experience for sapio contracts that always live in a rust memory space, but i want to load them in many contexts
15:27 < jeremyrubin> There's going to be a lot of work coming up with standard library contract components
15:27 < jeremyrubin> but I'm optimistic that sapio can be super useful even before that
15:28 < jeremyrubin> Worst case can use it to rapid prototype something before converting to a one-off e.g. C++ implmentation. And then for user inputs (e.g., subcontracts) you can run WASM sapio modules
15:29 < nothingmuch> a one off implementation of a specific contract?
15:30 < jeremyrubin> I've done it before (and I hope to never do it again)
15:31 < jeremyrubin> https://github.com/JeremyRubin/bitcoin/tree/checktemplateverify-feb1-workshop
15:32 < jeremyrubin> https://github.com/JeremyRubin/bitcoin/blob/checktemplateverify-feb1-workshop/src/wallet/rpcwallet.cpp
15:32 < jeremyrubin> sendmanycompacted
15:32 < jeremyrubin> create_ctv_vault
15:39 < nothingmuch> TBH that doesn't look too bad if thinking of a specific use case and the constraints justify not using the tooling
15:40 < jeremyrubin> Absolutely. The catch is that I plan to have a *lot* of tooling around sapio output formats. So folks will prolly expect to use those. That said, the formats are well spec'd so can always replicate
15:41 < nothingmuch> i mean, i'm assuming you'd use the tooling to develop & interact with it, it's just that certain implementations might need to "compile" a specific instance by hand so to speak, right?
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15:42 < jeremyrubin> not sure what that means
15:42 < jeremyrubin> TBH i think it would be easier to port a rudimentary version of Sapio to host language than to make one off contracts
15:43 < jeremyrubin> The *actual* compiler has a lot of bells and whistles that you don't need for most contracts
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15:43 < jeremyrubin> so if you just wanted minimum sapio you could get it trivially and not support some of the safety features or conveniences
15:43 < jeremyrubin> I think it'd be doable if you made it a file in bitcoin core in e.g. a weekend.
15:47 < jeremyrubin> If someone wants to work on that I'd be excited to help with it
15:47 < jeremyrubin> but am mostly focused on building a complete Sapio rust ecosystem foremost
15:49 < nothingmuch> i meant that most of the work of designing/developing the contracts would benefit from the tooling even if the target environment can't for some reason, but a rudimentary compiler does make more sense
15:50 < jeremyrubin> yes correct. you can use whatever features you like during development, and then transform it to a simpler version feature wise, and then port it to host w/ a simple compiler that just supports the most basic set of features
15:51 < jeremyrubin> E.g. all the conditional compilation and stuff can just be if/else clauses and more concrete types
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--- Log closed Tue Apr 20 00:00:31 2021