--- Log opened Fri Nov 05 00:00:23 2021
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11:27 < yanmaani> Anyone got any resources on why Proof of Stake is a scam?
11:28 < ademan[m]> Googling "nothing at stake" is a good start
11:29 < ademan[m]> Scam implies intent I don't believe is present with (most) PoS advocates
11:36 < yanmaani> Either they know about its security properties (but lie about them), in which case they're scammers, or they have no idea about the security properties of the technology they're promoting, in which case they're clowns.
12:12 < fluffypony> yanmaani: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Proof_of_Stake
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12:27 < yanmaani> man, this brings me back
12:27 < yanmaani> back when people just did stuff and posted it to bitcointalk, no ICO or shit
12:35 < michaelfolkson> yanmaani: Poelstra in 2015 https://download.wpsoftware.net/bitcoin/pos.pdf
12:38 < michaelfolkson> It was discussed on bitcoin-dev mailing list too in June https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2021-June/019041.html
12:39 < michaelfolkson> https://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/questions/25743/what-are-the-downsides-of-proof-of-stake
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13:25 < yanmaani> michaelfolkson: thanks!
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14:12 < ademan[m]> <yanmaani> "Either they know about its..." <- I think most are clowns. As I mentioned in #bitcoin, there are schemes that obfuscate the problem. So people have designed systems where they can no longer see the nothing-at-stake problem and they think they've solved it.
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14:30 < yanmaani> I mean, if you read the docs on this stuff it's purposefully written to hide it
14:30 < yanmaani> it's frankly not that different from reading obfuscated JS
14:31 < yanmaani> everything is hidden by references to other documents, which are only available from a locked filing cabinet stuck in a disused lavatory with a sign on the door saying Beware of the Leopard
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14:43 < roconnor> I've gotten as far as slashing as an attempt to twart signing on multiple tips, but in order to progress and achive consensus, it may be necessary for signers to change their mind later, which they cannot do if they are going to be slashed for it.
14:44 < roconnor> An alternative is to pick a random leader, but finding a random beacon seems impossible and ends up subject to grinding (which ends up amounting to a form of mining).
14:45 < roconnor> I kinda want to know what ETH is trying to do.
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15:28 < yanmaani> the problems are more fundamental
15:28 < yanmaani> how do you do ibd
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18:12 < roconnor> TBH, I can respect the idea that a protocol may be subject long-range attacks; just be honest about it.
18:13 < roconnor> I mean, which it comes to Bitcoin, how do you do a IBD?  It seems that you have to ask around to figure out what the rules are amoung the people you want to trade with.
18:14 < roconnor> A different protocol that requires you to get their chain tips doesn't strike me as that much more onerous.
18:15 < roconnor> Cardano seemed resonably honest at a glance when they said they simply admitted that they were subject to long-range attacks
18:16 < roconnor> But then the "fixed" the issue by a stroke of a pen to define the protocol to involve a step with nodes securely delete their very very valuable keys at a step.
18:17 < roconnor> and anyone who doesn't do this deletion (which is totally against their own interests) is now a dishonest node.
18:17 < roconnor> and their protocol says they are not secure when there are too many dishonest nodes.
18:18 < roconnor> Completely sweeping under the rug the notion of honest nodes needs to have at least some kind of nash-equilibrium to be useful.
18:18 < roconnor> anyhow, that's my little rant on Cardano.
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--- Log closed Sat Nov 06 00:00:24 2021