--- Log opened Wed Dec 01 00:00:48 2021
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12:01 < roconnor> Here is another, lettering drafting guide: http://ednotebook.hostgator.co.in/basics-of-engineering-drawing
12:01 < roconnor> I might spend some time making a type 3 font from the diagrams.
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13:07 < andytoshi> oh i like that way of drawing Y, i should start doing that ... i tend to draw an X where i try to make the second line stop before it crosses the first one
13:07 < andytoshi> which obviously results in Ys that look a lot like Xs
13:08 < andytoshi> but I do draw 5s and Ss the way that guide suggests, and they nonetheless come out looking similar if i write too quickly
13:12 < roconnor> I think writing S as $ is really a good idea.
13:19 < andytoshi> also, my gf has some of these https://www.amazon.com/Sakura-Pigma-30062-Micron-Blister/dp/B0008G8G8Y (you can find them at michaels or some such if you hate amazon) which are amazing
13:19 < andytoshi> for writing very fine clear lines
13:22 < roconnor> Hmm, I think a mechanical pencil might work better for erasing errors.
15:14 < andytoshi> ah, yeah, agreed
15:18 < andytoshi> so :/ in constructing a 5th share for a 4-of-n scheme, i spent a bit under 30 minutes computing the 5th share then a bit under 30 minutes computing the checksum, which didn't pass...after spending another hour redoing work i finally asked the computer, and found that i'd managed to (a) make 2 separate volvelling mistakes (which i almost never do) one in the checksum sheet and one when adding 
15:18 < andytoshi> shares, (b) read a handwritten 0 as a D (which idk how i did, the 0 had a slash through it and everything)
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15:20 < roconnor> this is tough.
15:20 < andytoshi> i am going to experiment with enlarging the volvelles
15:20 < andytoshi> the 0/D thing i think was just me being tired and working in shitty light
15:20 < andytoshi> i also notice that i made these mistakes with the b/w volvelle, whereas with the color one i think i have a nearly-perfect record
15:21 < roconnor> Well, OTOH this is why we have checksums.
15:21 < roconnor> clearly the scheme is unworkable without it.
15:21 < andytoshi> lol yeah!
15:21 < andytoshi> the checksum worksheet mistakes are what kill me though ... if i were fucking up anything else, i could error-correct it and i'd be ok
15:22 < andytoshi> but the checksum worksheet, if you mess it up, you have to redo it. and it's the most time-consuming part of things
15:32 < andytoshi> ok, i think i have an idea for how you can quickly sanity-check the checksum worksheet actually, but i need some time to implement/test it
15:33 < andytoshi> in short, i believe the last two digits of every entry on the checksum table are unique (this is not too hard to argue)
15:33 < roconnor> not true for QQ
15:33 < roconnor> oh you mean unique in the table.
15:33 < andytoshi> yeah
15:34 < andytoshi> ..actually on further thought i think this might not help me the way that i wanted it to
15:34 < andytoshi> (though i still think it's true)
15:34 < roconnor> The intermediate checksum computations could literally be anything.
15:36 < andytoshi> yeah :/ i was hoping i could sanity check them somehow without redoing all the additions
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16:04 < andytoshi> ok, here's a thought
16:04 < andytoshi> if you have complete checksum worksheets for your initial shares
16:05 < andytoshi> you can pick literally any cell, and lagrange-interpolate that cell to get the corresponding cell value on derived shares
16:06 < andytoshi> so maybe we suggest that, every 7 or 8 lines, users do this with the leftmost cells
16:07 < andytoshi> then, if they go off track, they have some notion of where
16:09 < andytoshi> they still have to double-check their worksheets on the initial shares without any assistance, but that's not so much of a burden ... there aren't many initial shares and it's really high-leverage to get them right
16:14 < roconnor> oh, I see.
16:14 < roconnor> that makes sense.
16:15 < andytoshi> actually i really like this ... even if you don't do it as you're working, you can do it retrospectively to binary-search where you must've fucked up
16:16 < roconnor> you could fill in the lower diagonal before you start or something.
16:16 < andytoshi> yeah :)
16:16 < andytoshi> although ofc, you could make mistakes pre-filling cells
16:16 < andytoshi> but at least these mistakes are localized
16:18 < andytoshi> I also like this because it gives users an incentive to verify their checksums prior to doing any interpolations .. so they'll have checksum sheets for their input data that they can use to catch mistakes
16:18 < andytoshi> you could even store the bottom diagonal in the unused half of your cryptosteel, to help re-doing the checksum :P
16:18 < roconnor> oh god.
16:19 < andytoshi> hahah
16:20 < andytoshi> in seriousness though we should emphasize that the lower diagonal is sufficient to reconstruct the secret, so if they _do_ try stupid tricks like that to store it, they should treat it like secret key material
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17:19 < andytoshi> lol this was a resounding success
17:20 < andytoshi> i tried to test this scheme and managed to make a deletion error on like the 5th character, totally unintentionally
17:20 < andytoshi> and it took me forever to backtrack and figure out what went wrong **but** i knew which character i must've messed up
17:21 < andytoshi> and was able to fix it and adjust my checksum worksheet, only a couple lines in, with very little propagated error
17:22 < andytoshi> one possible takeaway from this error, though, is that it would be good to add horizontal spaces every 4 characters to the checksum worksheet. at least for the initial line, where there aren't vertical drops every 2 characters
17:26 < andytoshi> i also feel much more confident that the stuff i've filled in, so far, is correct .. so i feel less pressure to power through tiredness (which i'd normally do on the reasoning that, if i spent multiple days on this and then found a mistake, i'd have wasted multiple days). which should reduce my overall error rate
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18:23 < roconnor> sipa: how many checksum characters with distance 9 with length 48 (including the checksum)?
18:24 < roconnor> I did notice the largest facter less than 93 of 32^2-1 is 33, which doesn't bode well for length 48.
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20:22 < sipa> roconnor: https://github.com/sipa/pychar2/blob/main/find_bch.py
20:38 < roconnor> Thanks.  Nothing between 33 and 93.
20:47 < roconnor> MIT {gsave ((c)) search {show pop /copyright glyphshow show} {show} ifelse grestore 0 -8 rmoveto} forall
20:47 < roconnor> fun
20:48 < sipa> roconnor: i find a degree=11 length=11 one, but the first one above is length 93
20:48 < sipa> at degree 123
20:48 < sipa> 13
20:49 < roconnor> oh.  Why did I stop a degree 6.
20:50 < roconnor> wait nevermind
20:52 < sipa> :D
20:53 < sipa> there is a degree=8 length=31 one
20:54 < sipa> oh, duh; that's the RS code
21:05 < sipa> also there are lengths below 93, but they're all degree 13
21:05 < roconnor> Right.  ... are there lenghts above 93 of degree 13?
21:06 < roconnor> seems unlikely.
21:08 < sipa> no
21:16 < sipa> something moderately remarkable i discovered with this: for any GF(2^n), there seems to exist length=2^n+1 degree=d dist=d+1 BCH codes
21:16 < sipa> which are 2 longer than the RS codes permit at the same degree and distance
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--- Log closed Thu Dec 02 00:00:49 2021