--- Log opened Thu Dec 22 00:00:51 2022
--- Day changed Thu Dec 22 2022
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01:37 < nsh> p2plife, do you know much about how actual vendors of CPUs that nominally adhere to x86_64 architectures eek out performance with various chicanery in terms of microarchitecture, pipelining, cache, instruction prediction, etc.? 
01:38 < nsh> all of this is happening while under the constraint of having to support a whole bunch of somewhat arbitrary legacy behaviours
01:39 < nsh> if you know in advance the valuable problem to be solved and it has limited diversity of computational complexity and is likely to be stable for some period allowing forecasting of break-even and eventual profitability relative to energy/dissipation costs and other overheads
01:41 < nsh> then the ability to optimise with special purpose architecture will in general at some economy of scale result in more efficient conversion of the natural resources into the valuable commodity
01:44 < nsh> long-term ASIC resistance strategies that have been (somewhat/relatively) effective have usually depended on frustrating this bottom-line forecasting analysis in various ways, e.g. by modulating aspects of the PoW problem in unpredictable ways periodically (somewhat successful arguably in the case of e.g. monero) or by attempting to employ some time/space complexity trade-off (memory-hardness) or require some other heavy non-processing resource utilisation. 
01:44 < nsh> i'm not sure i'd say this latter approach has been especially successful but opinions vary
01:45 < nsh> (and i've not been paying a huge amount of attention in the last few years so will defer to corrections and/or additional thoughts from anyone who has been)
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02:17 < p2plife> thanks nsh 
02:17 < nsh> np
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06:58 < andytoshi> i think "if you know in advance the valuable problem to be solved [then you can optimize]" is a good summary of where the problem is. and there aren't any good ways to deal with this.. in theory you could have a set of humans who dictate a new algo every month or two, by observing existing ASICs out there, but then you have a huge centralization vector, plus these people could be 
06:58 < andytoshi> wrong/corrupt/unavailable/whatever. and they will be subject to economic pressure from community members not to hurt miners too much or to do things that might break consensus
07:00 < andytoshi> you might also think to automatically randomize the algorithm, but then the space of possible algos is predictable ... or worse, you can have ASICs that only run when the randomization gives them a particularly favorable algorithm, and now you've got super variable hashpower
07:02 < andytoshi> i think of all the PoW 'improvement' aspirations floating around, "one that can only be done on retail CPUs" is the most doomed :)
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07:21 < nsh> indeed i should have make it explicit that the periodic switching approach comes at a non-trivial cost in terms of governance 
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08:39 < p2plife> andytoshi, I would imagine that it is "random" - decided by hashes of last 100 blocks, each of 100 parts of the algorithm  (knowledge 1 day in advance is not enough to in advance build a fab :PP anyway fabricating for 1 block is imposible).  algo would to random from some set of operations, chosen so that always it outperforms GPUs and FPGAs - so complex that general purpose CPUs win. and random in a way such that AMD and Intel 
08:39 < p2plife> high-sector CPUs on average have same probability
08:43 < p2plife> big pools could try to prefer blocks that make them win more easily the next block, but hopefully the cost of rejecting block would be too high for just e.g. 5% more performance of 1 next block
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--- Log closed Fri Dec 23 00:00:53 2022