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08:42 < Ademan> Not sure if this is OT here, but with secp256k1_musig_nonce_gen() does it make sense to provide extra_input32 as, say sha256_tag(current_time_nanos || hostname || nic_mac1 || nic_mac2 || ... ) or is it better to KISS and just provide current_time_nanos with nothing else mixed in?
08:47 < Ademan> As a follow up, I am using sha256_tag() (with the same definition as BIP340) whith a tag per-purpose (I have refund and execute transactions to sign, it seems at worst harmless to mix that purpose in as well)
08:50 < Ademan> I guess the question part of the follow up is: is it actually harmless at worst?
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12:35 < stevenroose> Reading https://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/questions/116732/how-to-choose-a-nothing-up-my-sleeve-nums-point-on-secp256k1-for-use-in-taproo, is there is standard NUMS point for script-only p2tr outputs?
12:35 < stevenroose> Like is there a standard way to "create a p2tr address from only this script/script tree"?
12:35 < stevenroose> What does miniscript do there?
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13:01 < _aj_> stevenroose: that question already has an answer that references the bip
13:01 < stevenroose> Yeah I know, but it just says that the BIP "suggests" a possible NUMS point.
13:02 < stevenroose> _aj_: my question is if that point is actually accepted as a standard point
13:02 < stevenroose> basically if you communicate to someone "p2tr output with only scriptspend XXX", is it reasonable to assume that they know which internal key to pick?
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13:03 < stevenroose> (i.e. is there a reasonable way to implement `hal address create --script <hex tapscript>` and return a p2tr address?)
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13:05 < _aj_> stevenroose: you'd need to communicate "r" in that case; setting r as a constant (0 eg) as part of your protocol reveals that you didn't have a key path when you spent it (to anyone who knows your protocol, at any rate).
13:06 < _aj_> stevenroose: (likewise deriving r from publicly available information)
13:07 < stevenroose> _aj_: yeah so that was my thinking too. there is no standard NUMS so we probably shouldnt' provide that functionality
13:07 < stevenroose> https://github.com/stevenroose/hal/pull/39 fyi
13:07 < stevenroose> Finally got around to support taproot, sorry for the delay
13:07 < _aj_> stevenroose: "the" standard is H+rG with that particular H
13:09 < stevenroose> yeah but we don't have an r. well I could make a taproot specific command for that that takes r. but we have fn(Script, Network) -> Addresses, which doesn't seems to be possible for p2tr
13:12 < _aj_> https://gist.github.com/sipa/06c5c844df155d4e5044c2c8cac9c05e -- "tr(unspend(xxxx)/99, ...)"  -- unspend encodes H, xxxx and /99 derives r. not sure where that is in implementation/standardisation
13:16 < _aj_> fn(Key, Scripts, Network) -> Address, and user can select a NUMS point for Key if they want seems fine to me fwiw
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13:34 < stevenroose> yeah adding explicit nums selection option
13:41 < stevenroose> _aj_: https://github.com/stevenroose/hal/pull/39/commits/4a16b0cb6fe3be867bb8a9319caeebc2b046db8b :)
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14:00 < _aj_> stevenroose: lgtm
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15:29 < real_or_random> ademan[m]: I think in the specific case of extra_input32, it's harmless to add more stuff to the hash. so a || b is not worse than a, even if b happens to be controlled by the attacker
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15:34 < real_or_random> but yeah, it's hard to give a good recommendation what to actually hash there. nanoseconds sounds good. for nics and hostnames, it feels a bit like like vodoo. but yeah, why not. at some point, the marginal advantage goes to zero. in particular because it's anyway only defense in depth. if your RNG is broken,  then extra_input32 may save you in a musig session, but your security be screwed in 100 other ways 
15:34 < real_or_random> cc nickler 
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15:38 < real_or_random> I've also heard the argument that you shouldn't collect entropy from so many sources because it hides errors: if your RNG is actually broken, you won't even notice. but I'm not sure if that argument convinces me. perhaps in testing, but certainly not in production.
15:42 < real_or_random> and if you want more sophisticated ideas of what  to put in the hash, see https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/master/src/random.cpp
15:53 < ademan[m]> thanks! yeah mixing in hostname and mac definitely is voodoo-ish rather than a well thought out approach.
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17:22 < ademan[m]> by that same token I suppose using the tagged hash with a purpose is a bit voodoo-ish as well, isn't it?
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22:14 < stevenroose> Does tapscript require bip61-style minimal pushes? It mentions the minimalif requirement, but nothing about pushes
22:15 < _aj_> you can push whatever you want, it's when things are interpreted as a number that it becomes an error if you didn't do a minimal push
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22:18 < stevenroose> _aj_: I don't undertand what you mean with that?
22:19 < stevenroose> I'm not talking about what's actually on the stack, but about what opcodes you can use to push things. Like bip61 talks about. Like can you both use op_pushbytes1 and op_pushdata1 0x01?
22:19 < stevenroose> I suppose you can, as I can't find anything that disallows in, neither in the taproot not segwit bips
22:20 < _aj_> maybe i don't understand what i'm talking about either?
22:20 < _aj_> yeah, i think i'm confused
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22:23 < BlueMatt[m]> No idea if it requires it but istm there’s no reason to? Like the issue was in the scriptSig pushes, in most cases who cares if the scriptPubKey push is non-minimal, that’s not malleable cause it’s signed.
22:23 < _aj_> yeah, minimaldata is a policy rule; minimalif is consensus for tapscript (data that OP_IF/OP_NOTIF pulls must be "" or "\x01")
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22:28 < _aj_> we overload fRequireMinimal to control checking both CheckMinimalPush and for interpreting a stack element as a number, which would be malleable for data coming from the witness
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--- Log closed Wed Jun 07 00:00:23 2023