--- Log opened Thu Jul 06 00:00:51 2023
00:01 -!- tromp [~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl] has quit [Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…]
00:13 -!- salvatoshi [~salvatosh@genymobile-2-6-86.fib.nerim.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
00:14 -!- tromp [~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
00:37 -!- Guyver2 [~Guyver@77-174-98-73.fixed.kpn.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
00:45 -!- brunoerg [~brunoerg@2804:14c:3bfb:8a:fd8c:5780:76e8:2f6f] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
00:50 -!- brunoerg [~brunoerg@2804:14c:3bfb:8a:fd8c:5780:76e8:2f6f] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]
01:23 -!- tromp [~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl] has quit [Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…]
01:27 -!- dgenr8 [~dgenr8@user/dgenr8] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
01:28 -!- dgenr8 [~dgenr8@user/dgenr8] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
01:30 -!- Guyver2 [~Guyver@77-174-98-73.fixed.kpn.net] has quit [Quit: Going offline, see ya! (www.adiirc.com)]
01:43 -!- tromp [~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
01:46 -!- brunoerg [~brunoerg@2804:14c:3bfb:8a:fd8c:5780:76e8:2f6f] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
01:51 -!- brunoerg [~brunoerg@2804:14c:3bfb:8a:fd8c:5780:76e8:2f6f] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
01:52 -!- brunoerg [~brunoerg@2804:14c:3bfb:8a:fd8c:5780:76e8:2f6f] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
01:56 -!- brunoerg [~brunoerg@2804:14c:3bfb:8a:fd8c:5780:76e8:2f6f] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
02:08 -!- ZeroMaster [~webirc@87-126-6-81.ip.btc-net.bg] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]
02:09 -!- brunoerg [~brunoerg@2804:14c:3bfb:8a:fd8c:5780:76e8:2f6f] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
02:12 -!- ZeroMaster [~webirc@87-126-6-81.ip.btc-net.bg] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
02:13 -!- brunoerg [~brunoerg@2804:14c:3bfb:8a:fd8c:5780:76e8:2f6f] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
02:14 -!- brunoerg [~brunoerg@2804:14c:3bfb:8a:fd8c:5780:76e8:2f6f] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
02:19 -!- brunoerg [~brunoerg@2804:14c:3bfb:8a:fd8c:5780:76e8:2f6f] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
02:33 -!- brunoerg [~brunoerg@2804:14c:3bfb:8a:fd8c:5780:76e8:2f6f] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
02:38 -!- brunoerg [~brunoerg@2804:14c:3bfb:8a:fd8c:5780:76e8:2f6f] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
02:45 -!- brunoerg [~brunoerg@2804:14c:3bfb:8a:fd8c:5780:76e8:2f6f] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
02:50 -!- brunoerg [~brunoerg@2804:14c:3bfb:8a:fd8c:5780:76e8:2f6f] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
02:51 -!- brunoerg [~brunoerg@2804:14c:3bfb:8a:fd8c:5780:76e8:2f6f] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
02:55 -!- brunoerg [~brunoerg@2804:14c:3bfb:8a:fd8c:5780:76e8:2f6f] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
03:02 -!- CryptoDavid [uid14990@id-14990.uxbridge.irccloud.com] has quit [Quit: Connection closed for inactivity]
03:17 -!- brunoerg [~brunoerg@2804:14c:3bfb:8a:fd8c:5780:76e8:2f6f] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
03:26 -!- brunoerg [~brunoerg@2804:14c:3bfb:8a:fd8c:5780:76e8:2f6f] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
03:33 -!- brunoerg [~brunoerg@2804:14c:3bfb:8a:fd8c:5780:76e8:2f6f] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
03:37 -!- jonatack [~jonatack@user/jonatack] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]
03:38 -!- brunoerg [~brunoerg@2804:14c:3bfb:8a:fd8c:5780:76e8:2f6f] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]
03:39 -!- cold [~cold@user/cold] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
03:40 -!- cold [~cold@user/cold] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
03:44 -!- brunoerg [~brunoerg@187.183.43.117] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
03:49 -!- brunoerg [~brunoerg@187.183.43.117] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
04:14 -!- brunoerg [~brunoerg@2804:14c:3bfb:8a:fd8c:5780:76e8:2f6f] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
04:14 -!- vysn [~vysn@user/vysn] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
04:15 -!- Guyver2 [~Guyver@77-174-98-73.fixed.kpn.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
04:19 -!- brunoerg [~brunoerg@2804:14c:3bfb:8a:fd8c:5780:76e8:2f6f] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
04:19 -!- brunoerg [~brunoerg@187.183.43.117] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
04:24 -!- brunoerg [~brunoerg@187.183.43.117] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
04:38 -!- tromp [~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl] has quit [Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…]
04:40 -!- ghost43 [~ghost43@gateway/tor-sasl/ghost43] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
04:41 -!- ghost43 [~ghost43@gateway/tor-sasl/ghost43] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
04:52 -!- brunoerg [~brunoerg@2804:14c:3bfb:8a:fd8c:5780:76e8:2f6f] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
04:59 -!- brunoerg [~brunoerg@2804:14c:3bfb:8a:fd8c:5780:76e8:2f6f] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
05:01 -!- brunoerg [~brunoerg@2804:14c:3bfb:8a:fd8c:5780:76e8:2f6f] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
05:06 -!- brunoerg [~brunoerg@2804:14c:3bfb:8a:fd8c:5780:76e8:2f6f] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]
05:06 -!- brunoerg [~brunoerg@2804:14c:3bfb:8a:fd8c:5780:76e8:2f6f] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
05:11 -!- brunoerg [~brunoerg@2804:14c:3bfb:8a:fd8c:5780:76e8:2f6f] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
05:29 -!- brunoerg [~brunoerg@187.183.43.117] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
05:33 -!- brunoerg [~brunoerg@187.183.43.117] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]
05:35 -!- tromp [~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
05:36 -!- brunoerg [~brunoerg@2804:14c:3bfb:8a:fd8c:5780:76e8:2f6f] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
05:50 -!- Guyver2 [~Guyver@77-174-98-73.fixed.kpn.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
06:36 -!- jonatack [~jonatack@user/jonatack] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
07:02 -!- tromp [~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl] has quit [Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…]
07:26 -!- Guyver2 [~Guyver@77-174-98-73.fixed.kpn.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
07:32 -!- tristan123 is now known as tristan_
07:47 -!- tromp [~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
08:46 -!- tromp [~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl] has quit [Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…]
08:56 < jeremyrubin> there are strong reasons to keep bare script CTV
08:56 < BlueMatt[m]> you mean basically what aj pointed to above?
08:56 < jeremyrubin> the gist of it is that if you are doing some sort of "expander" like congestion control, payment pools, channels, etc, you need to pick a radix for the number of outputs per node
08:57 < jeremyrubin> i have a formula for that somewhere, but you can think of it as a trade-off between how deep the trees are v.s. how much of other people's stuff you're paying for
08:58 < jeremyrubin> because of tx size, IIRC the number works out to be 4 or 5 for bare script (its 4, but kinda a flat U curve so 5 is prob just as good 
08:59 < jeremyrubin> if you shift to taproot, i think it might shift to 6?
09:00 < jeremyrubin> i'd need to re-do the math tho
09:01 < jeremyrubin> but intuitively, it's something like 64 bytes + 40*(n+1) transaction size under taproot and something like 40(n+1) for bare 
09:04 < jeremyrubin> and you multiply by the tree depth
09:33 < jeremyrubin> someone might wanna check my math, but IIRC the "formula" is something like this:
09:33 < jeremyrubin> for taproot: minimize 1 / log (R) * ((32+1+1+8)* R + (32+4+4 + 1) + 1 + 1+ 4+4 (1 + 32 + 32 + 1+ 1) )  where R>=1
09:34 < jeremyrubin> without taproot: minimize 1 / log (R) * ((32+1+1+8)* R + (32+4+4 + 1) + 1 + 1+ 4+4)  where R>=1
09:35 < jeremyrubin> so you get either 3.75 or 7.5
09:35 < jeremyrubin> my byte counting may be off by a few
09:37 -!- salvatoshi [~salvatosh@genymobile-2-6-86.fib.nerim.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]
09:45 < jeremyrubin> of course, if you're just optimizing for chain space, bigger radix is "better", as is the idea that there might be a cooperative close case, so it's a YMMV protocol trade-off design issue, and you can mix and match
09:45 < jeremyrubin> optimized radix is better for a given individual who has to go on chain urgently, it minimizes the cost to do that which also means that it causes the least fee pressure for other users
09:52 -!- ghost43 [~ghost43@gateway/tor-sasl/ghost43] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
09:53 -!- ghost43 [~ghost43@gateway/tor-sasl/ghost43] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
10:01 < stevenroose> jeremyrubin: yeah the congestion control idea has the assumption that eventually all txs will hit the chain, which in Ark is different, even though the covenant tree structure is identical
10:02 < stevenroose> the assumption is there that usually nothing ever hits the chain, but the decision of the tradeoff is then "do we optimize for a single leaf to hit the chain or for the disaster scenario where everything will have to hit the chain"
10:03 < stevenroose>  --  something else  --
10:04 < stevenroose> just wondering, how flexible is the taproot keypath spend towards softforks? like how hard would it be to restrict the keypath spend scenario to f.e. add some kind of in-taproot CSV commitment value
10:05 < stevenroose> I imagine there is no flexiblity tbh, but just asking. imagine some scenario where instead of revealing the internal pubkey, you reveal a pubkey + an indicator byte + a CSV value or something like that
10:36 -!- tromp [~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
10:40 < stevenroose> btw, jeremyrubin if you have some code for that math, I'd love to have that, cuz the structure I'm building is a little more complex (CTV OR signature after relative timelock) so the math will be different, but maybe I can plug it into your algo :)
11:09 -!- instagibbs1 [~instagibb@pool-100-15-126-231.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
11:10 -!- instagibbs [~instagibb@pool-100-15-126-231.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
11:10 -!- instagibbs1 is now known as instagibbs
14:12 -!- tristan_ [~tristan_@120.88.40.176] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
15:00 -!- Guyver2 [~Guyver@77-174-98-73.fixed.kpn.net] has quit [Quit: Going offline, see ya! (www.adiirc.com)]
15:12 -!- brunoerg [~brunoerg@2804:14c:3bfb:8a:fd8c:5780:76e8:2f6f] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
15:13 -!- brunoerg [~brunoerg@2804:14c:3bfb:8a:fd8c:5780:76e8:2f6f] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
15:17 -!- brunoerg [~brunoerg@2804:14c:3bfb:8a:fd8c:5780:76e8:2f6f] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
15:27 -!- vysn [~vysn@user/vysn] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
15:46 -!- brunoerg [~brunoerg@2804:14c:3bfb:8a:fd8c:5780:76e8:2f6f] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
15:51 -!- brunoerg [~brunoerg@2804:14c:3bfb:8a:fd8c:5780:76e8:2f6f] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
16:03 -!- brunoerg [~brunoerg@2804:14c:3bfb:8a:fd8c:5780:76e8:2f6f] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
16:07 -!- brunoerg [~brunoerg@2804:14c:3bfb:8a:fd8c:5780:76e8:2f6f] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
17:00 -!- brunoerg [~brunoerg@2804:14c:3bfb:8a:fd8c:5780:76e8:2f6f] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
17:05 -!- brunoerg [~brunoerg@2804:14c:3bfb:8a:fd8c:5780:76e8:2f6f] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]
17:09 -!- tromp [~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl] has quit [Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…]
17:23 -!- brunoerg [~brunoerg@187.183.43.117] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
17:27 -!- brunoerg [~brunoerg@187.183.43.117] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
17:48 -!- brunoerg [~brunoerg@2804:14c:3bfb:8a:fd8c:5780:76e8:2f6f] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
17:55 -!- brunoerg [~brunoerg@2804:14c:3bfb:8a:fd8c:5780:76e8:2f6f] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
18:12 -!- brunoerg [~brunoerg@2804:14c:3bfb:8a:fd8c:5780:76e8:2f6f] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
18:17 -!- brunoerg [~brunoerg@2804:14c:3bfb:8a:fd8c:5780:76e8:2f6f] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
18:19 -!- brunoerg [~brunoerg@2804:14c:3bfb:8a:fd8c:5780:76e8:2f6f] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
18:23 -!- brunoerg [~brunoerg@2804:14c:3bfb:8a:fd8c:5780:76e8:2f6f] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
18:36 -!- brunoerg [~brunoerg@2804:14c:3bfb:8a:fd8c:5780:76e8:2f6f] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
18:41 -!- brunoerg [~brunoerg@2804:14c:3bfb:8a:fd8c:5780:76e8:2f6f] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
18:41 -!- brunoerg [~brunoerg@2804:14c:3bfb:8a:fd8c:5780:76e8:2f6f] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
18:48 -!- brunoerg [~brunoerg@2804:14c:3bfb:8a:fd8c:5780:76e8:2f6f] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
18:50 -!- brunoerg [~brunoerg@2804:14c:3bfb:8a:fd8c:5780:76e8:2f6f] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
18:54 -!- brunoerg [~brunoerg@2804:14c:3bfb:8a:fd8c:5780:76e8:2f6f] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
19:28 -!- brunoerg [~brunoerg@187.183.43.117] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
19:33 -!- brunoerg [~brunoerg@187.183.43.117] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
19:57 -!- brunoerg [~brunoerg@187.183.43.117] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
20:01 -!- brunoerg [~brunoerg@187.183.43.117] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
20:10 -!- duderonomy [~duderonom@c-107-3-165-79.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]
20:12 -!- duderonomy [~duderonom@c-107-3-165-79.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
20:14 -!- brunoerg [~brunoerg@2804:14c:3bfb:8a:fd8c:5780:76e8:2f6f] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
20:19 -!- brunoerg [~brunoerg@2804:14c:3bfb:8a:fd8c:5780:76e8:2f6f] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
20:19 -!- brunoerg [~brunoerg@2804:14c:3bfb:8a:fd8c:5780:76e8:2f6f] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
20:24 -!- brunoerg [~brunoerg@2804:14c:3bfb:8a:fd8c:5780:76e8:2f6f] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
20:42 -!- brunoerg [~brunoerg@2804:14c:3bfb:8a:fd8c:5780:76e8:2f6f] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
20:46 -!- brunoerg [~brunoerg@2804:14c:3bfb:8a:fd8c:5780:76e8:2f6f] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
21:11 -!- brunoerg [~brunoerg@2804:14c:3bfb:8a:fd8c:5780:76e8:2f6f] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
21:16 -!- tristan123 [~tristan_@120.88.40.176] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
21:16 -!- brunoerg [~brunoerg@2804:14c:3bfb:8a:fd8c:5780:76e8:2f6f] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
21:22 -!- brunoerg [~brunoerg@187.183.43.117] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
21:27 -!- brunoerg [~brunoerg@187.183.43.117] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
21:35 -!- dongcarl [~dongcarl@cpe-66-65-169-19.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
21:50 -!- dongcarl [~dongcarl@cpe-66-65-169-19.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
22:07 -!- bitdex [~bitdex@gateway/tor-sasl/bitdex] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
22:08 -!- bitdex [~bitdex@gateway/tor-sasl/bitdex] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
22:09 -!- bitdex [~bitdex@gateway/tor-sasl/bitdex] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
22:13 -!- brunoerg [~brunoerg@187.183.43.117] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
22:17 -!- brunoerg [~brunoerg@187.183.43.117] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
22:40 -!- vysn [~vysn@user/vysn] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
22:46 -!- brunoerg [~brunoerg@187.183.43.117] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
22:49 -!- jonatack [~jonatack@user/jonatack] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
22:50 -!- brunoerg [~brunoerg@187.183.43.117] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
23:07 -!- jonatack [~jonatack@user/jonatack] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
23:08 -!- brunoerg [~brunoerg@187.183.43.117] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
23:12 -!- brunoerg [~brunoerg@187.183.43.117] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]
23:25 -!- tristan_ [~tristan_@223.238.81.204] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
23:27 -!- tristan123 [~tristan_@120.88.40.176] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
23:32 -!- tristan123 [~tristan_@120.88.40.176] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
23:34 -!- tristan_ [~tristan_@223.238.81.204] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
23:36 -!- brunoerg [~brunoerg@2804:14c:3bfb:8a:fd8c:5780:76e8:2f6f] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
23:40 -!- brunoerg [~brunoerg@2804:14c:3bfb:8a:fd8c:5780:76e8:2f6f] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
23:47 -!- tromp [~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards
--- Log closed Fri Jul 07 00:00:52 2023