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10:23 < ademan[m]> OT-ish but are there any encryption "standards"/recommendations for bitcoin applications? In particular I'm interested in protecting private keys and other wallet data.
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13:57 < andytoshi> ademan[m]: not that i'm aware of. if i were doing this i'd probably copy bitcoin core's ad-hoc impl
13:57 < andytoshi> which iirc key-hardens for 0.1s on the machine that the wallet is set up on, then uses aes (i forget which mode)
13:58 < andytoshi> achow101 is working on extending this to support encrypting whole wallets, not just private keys. not sure if he's doing any architectural changes
13:58 < andytoshi> but i think a proper spec would probably look fairly different since we've learned a lot in the last 10 years
14:06 < darosior> For what it's worth C-lightning uses libsodium's default algorithm to derive a key from a password (Argon2id) and uses ChaCha20-Poly1305 to encrypt the `hsm_secret` with that key (also libsodium's recommended algorithm).
14:07 < darosior> https://github.com/ElementsProject/lightning/blob/master/common/hsm_encryption.c
14:07 < BlueMatt[m]> yea, I think I'd use something more modern for key-hardening, iirc bitcoin core just like does sha256 in a loop for 100ms
14:16 < ademan[m]> thanks!
14:25 < andytoshi> the one thing i might consider tweaking would be to increase whatever knob you need to to make it memory-harder
14:25 < andytoshi> like, if this is going to be run on a consumer desktop that only needs to unlock one wallet at a time, why not make it use 2gb of memory or something
14:25 < BlueMatt[m]> right, that, so dont use sha :)
14:25 < andytoshi> lol yeah :)
14:28 < andytoshi> i didn't realize that's what Core did when i said "i'd probably copy core" :P
14:28 < BlueMatt[m]> i mean has the core algo changed since it was added almost a decade ago now?
14:28 < BlueMatt[m]> back then memory hard hashing was not as much of a thing :)
14:29 < ademan[m]> not that I would roll my own crypto ever but couldn't you make sha memory hard by reversing it? something like sha256( sha256( N || pw ) || sha256( N - 1 || pw ) || ... sha256( 1 || pw ) || sha256( 0 || pw ) ) you'd have to keep the N intermediate values in memory?
14:29 < ademan[m]> oops, off-by one in my pseudo code 😂
14:30 < BlueMatt[m]> maybe? there's probably some TMTO there tho, especially if you're looking at it from an asic pov
14:30 < BlueMatt[m]> just in general you can make sha a shitload faster on an asic
14:30 < ademan[m]> what I proposed doens't prevent you from calculating the intermediates out of order lol
14:30 < darosior> On this topic libsodium's Argon2id with "moderate" parameter is quite memory intensive: it requires 256MiB of RAM. https://github.com/ElementsProject/lightning/blob/5148fcaeed1fbb13a367bbdea4e5e71b674de3ac/common/hsm_encryption.c#L31-L35
14:31 < ademan[m]> should have been like sha256^N(pw) instead of sha256(N || pw)
14:31 < ademan[m]> that's what I get for spitballing lol
14:32 < darosior> At the time i guess i felt like going with "sensitive" and 1GB of RAM was a bit overkill.
14:32 < BlueMatt[m]> oh, heh, that's what i thought you meant :)
14:32 < BlueMatt[m]> darosior: 1GB is a lot for many machines, people with RPis or VMs  will end up hitting swap for that a lot
14:32 < ademan[m]> I appreciate you giving me the benefit of the doubt, it is what I initially meant but by the time I finished writing it out I had forgotten lol
14:33 < darosior> Yeah that's why i went with moderate which hits a sweatspot between requiring some memory but not going crazy either
14:34 < achow101> BlueMatt[m]: core's keys stretching absolutely has not changed since it was first implemented lol
14:34 < BlueMatt[m]> ha, well then dont copy core, I absolutely knew nothing about crypto when i wrote that a decade ago 😂
14:35 < BlueMatt[m]> surprised it wasnt more broken than it was (and it was kinda broken cause of the db)
14:35 < achow101> there's a comment for an enum to add the option to use scrypt, but it's not been implemented
14:35 < BlueMatt[m]> ha
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--- Log closed Tue Jul 25 00:00:09 2023