--- Log opened Tue Sep 12 00:00:20 2023
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06:35 < Chris_Stewart_5> sanket1729: The idea would be to do a slim soft fork with uncontroversial (:tm:) addition of 64 bit arithmetic opcodes. Then futures soft forks like OP_INOUT_AMOUNT, OP_TLUV, OP_VAULT etc can build off that work
06:37 < Chris_Stewart_5> Perhaps the soft fork that i'm proposing should add point math too as that -- IIUC -- would be required for TLUV
06:38 < Chris_Stewart_5> Is there a reason people seem to be circling the wagons on OP_VAULT rather than OP_TLUV? Or is it just a matter of thats where the elbow grease is currently being applied?
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06:59 < instagibbs> OP_VAULT was scoped for a specific use-case, then later took inspiration from TLUV for actual taproot mechanics, simplifying the spec. I don't think aj is interested in pushing TLUV further, but I could be mistaken.
07:11 < jamesob> Chris_Stewart_5: afaiu, TLUV was more conceptual than anything else. There were never any specific semantics defined for articulating leaf update rules, which is part of what OP_VAULT does
07:14 < jamesob> also, it's very difficult to build certain OP_VAULT equivalents (batching, revaults) with more "primitive" approaches like IN/OUT stack pushes because fundamentally you need the deferred check framework to support cross-input amount aggregation. burak did something sort of equivalent with a dummy "control" input at the end that did the total
07:14 < jamesob> checks, but (i) it couldn't handle revaults and (ii) the script was extremely verbose and complicated
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07:15 < Chris_Stewart_5> jamesob: Agree. I guess i'm trying to figure out why it never made the transition from concept -> implementation. Is it just because its too much work for the authors? Was there fatal flaws discovered that haven't been publically shared? Is the politics of activating things on the bitcoin network too much hassle for the author to continue developing it? :man_shrugging:
07:16 < jamesob> my guess: because coming up with a generic mechanism to articulate allowable leaf transformations in script is very hard
07:17 < Chris_Stewart_5> Hmm, what do you mean by deferred check framework for cross input amount agg? Do you have any pointers of where to look to read more on this? 
07:17 < jamesob> commit: https://github.com/bitcoin-inquisition/bitcoin/pull/21/commits/7544d9275452b78d1658c0f93c90655c3c35ba27
07:18 < Chris_Stewart_5> Thanks for all the feedback, i'll look into this stuff!
07:19 < jamesob> OP_VAULT deferred checks spec: https://github.com/bitcoin/bips/blob/4aae726be9610a675b362e66f539ce0d5f903a5f/bip-0345.mediawiki#deferred-check-evaluation
07:20 < jamesob> actual deferred checks execution: https://github.com/bitcoin-inquisition/bitcoin/pull/21/commits/1ec21284d411cb34ec60d772129ac4b5aaaebb70#diff-97c3a52bc5fad452d82670a7fd291800bae20c7bc35bb82686c2c0a4ea7b5b98
07:22 < instagibbs> I also think the xonly math was a big bummer for the idea as well, no citations on that but "evicting" a pubkey wasn't as simple as hoped
07:24 < Chris_Stewart_5> instagibbs: Yes, thats cited on the TLUV email... when are we going to get rid of xonly? can we just allocated a v1 taproot version with 33 byte public keys?
07:25 < Chris_Stewart_5> g
07:26 < Chris_Stewart_5> 'get rid of' is too strong of a term, soft fork and then encourage 33 byte usage? :-) 
07:26 < instagibbs> nah just use v2 and v3 to be even and odd, respectively
07:26  * instagibbs logs off
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--- Log closed Wed Sep 13 00:00:21 2023