--- Log opened Tue Jan 30 00:00:44 2024 00:02 -!- maskedme [~maskedme@185.199.101.92] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:08 -!- Ademan [~ademan@47.185.95.178] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:13 -!- Ademan [~ademan@47.185.95.178] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:15 -!- Ademan [~ademan@47.185.95.178] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:18 -!- salvatoshi [~salvatosh@genymobile-2-6-86.fib.nerim.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:20 -!- vysn [~vysn@user/vysn] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:23 -!- dongcarl [~dongcarl@066-065-169-019.res.spectrum.com] has quit [Quit: Ping timeout (120 seconds)] 00:23 -!- dongcarl [~dongcarl@066-065-169-019.res.spectrum.com] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:27 -!- vysn [~vysn@user/vysn] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:35 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@user/AaronvanW] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 00:37 -!- tromp [~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl] has quit [Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. 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host closed the connection] 06:38 -!- yonson [~yonson@ip70-181-225-218.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 06:45 -!- yonson [~yonson@ip70-181-225-218.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:47 -!- yonson [~yonson@ip70-181-225-218.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 06:51 -!- Ademan [~ademan@47.185.95.178] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:04 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@user/AaronvanW] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:18 -!- furszy_ [~furszy@104.128.239.93] has quit [Quit: ZNC - https://znc.in] 07:24 -!- furszy [~furszy@104.128.239.93] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:24 -!- furszy [~furszy@user/furszy] has changed host 07:34 -!- yonson [~yonson@ip70-181-225-218.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 07:36 -!- yonson [~yonson@ip70-181-225-218.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 07:37 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@user/AaronvanW] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 07:50 -!- the_mariner [~Thunderbi@2804:7f7:e18e:3341:35da:df42:61ec:b4c] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds] 07:54 -!- the_mariner [~Thunderbi@2804:7f7:e18e:3341:35da:df42:61ec:b4c] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:00 -!- vysn [~vysn@user/vysn] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 08:19 -!- pablomartin [~pablomart@193.203.14.54] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:18 -!- greypw2546002161 [~greypw254@grey.pw] has quit [Quit: I'll be back!] 09:18 -!- greypw2546002161 [~greypw254@grey.pw] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:29 -!- tromp [~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl] has quit [Quit: My iMac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…] 09:33 -!- sophax [~sophax@static.114.165.13.49.clients.your-server.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:44 -!- tromp [~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:48 < Ademan> This is a fairly idle thought, but there was some discussion on twitter and I really don't understand the landscape of covenant discussions... Ignoring efficiency questions, if CTV had a template that optionally *didn't* commit to the values of some outputs, then couldn't that be combined with checksig to allow RBF? I assume since it's an obvious solution there's obvious problems with it, but I 09:48 < Ademan> don't understand the design space well. Does this introduce recursive covenants? Pinning vectors? MEV? (Obviously with checksig all parties need to agree on the output values, so it's fairly limited) 09:49 -!- salvatoshi [~salvatosh@genymobile-2-6-86.fib.nerim.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 09:52 -!- jonatack [~jonatack@user/jonatack] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 09:56 < Ademan> I think(?) it could be reasonably efficient, it would use the same template as the default CTV template up until the number of outputs, and there it would behave the same as CTV but with the list of outputs truncated to the first N. Implementations could cache sha256 state every M outputs to reduce the cost of calculating the template for different Ns 10:05 < _aj_> Ademan: i think you're reinventing op_txhash at that point? 10:11 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@user/AaronvanW] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 10:18 < Ademan> _aj_: i confess I haven't read TXHASH but I understand they're pretty similar. iirc txhash permits like a bitmask selection outputs which seems like it would torpedo hashing efficiency? This is also stupid simple (proof: I thought of it). Doesn't it similarly follow that CTV could implement TXHASH one day after everything is nailed down? top stack item = TEMPLATE_HASH || 10:18 < Ademan> TXHASH_EMULATION_TEMPLATE_ID || TXHASH_DATA_BYTES ? 10:19 < Ademan> er, ok, I did glance at txhash just now, ofc OP_TXHASH can't be emulated by CTV, but OP_CHECKTXHASHVERIFY can 10:19 < Ademan> I suppose OP_TXHASH + CSFS might be interesting 10:34 -!- AaronvanW [~AaronvanW@user/AaronvanW] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 10:56 < Ademan> how many NOPs do we have left in bare script anyway? 11:57 -!- the_mariner [~Thunderbi@2804:7f7:e18e:3341:35da:df42:61ec:b4c] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds] 12:26 < Ademan> > (from TXHASH email) For prefix hashing, intermediate SHA256 contexts can be stored every N items so that at most N-1 items have to be hashed when called repeatedly. - cool so I was at least thinking correctly about this 12:38 -!- jonatack [~jonatack@user/jonatack] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 12:42 -!- salvatoshi [~salvatosh@lfbn-idf3-1-1331-187.w92-170.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 13:10 -!- Guyver2 [~Guyver@77-174-98-73.fixed.kpn.net] has quit [Quit: Going offline, see ya! 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ZZZzzz…] 14:23 -!- vysn [~vysn@user/vysn] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:45 -!- jonatack [~jonatack@user/jonatack] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 14:48 -!- tusko [~xoxoxo@user/tusko] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:48 -!- tusko [~xoxoxo@user/tusko] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 15:29 -!- jon_atack [~jonatack@user/jonatack] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 15:30 -!- jonatack [~jonatack@user/jonatack] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds] 15:35 -!- salvatoshi [~salvatosh@lfbn-idf3-1-1331-187.w92-170.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:45 -!- jon_atack [~jonatack@user/jonatack] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 15:55 -!- tusko [~xoxoxo@user/tusko] has quit [Quit: ( * y * )] 15:55 -!- tusko [~xoxoxo@user/tusko] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 15:59 -!- jonatack [~jonatack@user/jonatack] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:23 -!- jon_atack [~jonatack@user/jonatack] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 16:23 -!- unknown_unknown6 [~unknown_u@169.150.219.145] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:26 -!- jonatack [~jonatack@user/jonatack] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds] 16:36 < jeremyrubin> > Does this introduce recursive covenants? {Depends. TXHASH does by allowing you to do OP_TXHASH OP_EQUALVERIFY } Pinning vectors? {Yes, many types of things. If you can add an arbitrary input, you can use a bloated witness script for example to put it in the bottom of the mempool and 16:36 < jeremyrubin> expensive to replace, for example } MEV? {Given that it's recursive, probably lets you build some powerful "stateful" programs, but not having OP_CAT hampers that quite a bit} 17:25 < Ademan> thanks! The example how recursion is created with TXHASH really helps my thinking, although I assume there's plenty of other ways in other covenant schemes? (is it possible with *only* OP_CHECKTXHASHVERIFY ? I don't think so?) I wasn't imagining the ability to add inputs (although I guess if you have nInputs > 1 you don't have any inherent control over the other inputs, but it can still be 17:25 < Ademan> achieved with an extra checksig for example, not sure if it's a problem that pinnable scripts are possible as long as less/unpinnable scripts are?) I'm not sure if there's much value in being able to add inputs, is there? If you don't have enough inside the committed transaction to pay fees, is there a case where you'd still want to pay *even more fees* by bringing in another UTXO? (for a 17:25 < Ademan> punishment mechanism maybe? maybe I'm being a dummy here, I'm way out of my lane and way out of my expertise here heh) I was basically imagining wit: program: OP_CHECKTEMPLATEVERIFY OP_DROP(?) OP_CHECKSIGVERIFY as a RBF-able CTV that lets you RBF by reducing the output amount, it even lets you prune outputs/ 17:27 < Ademan> 0x01 in this case would be just a flag byte indicating the template type, and N_OUTPUTS_AS_VARINT is obviously the template argument 17:38 < Ademan> not sure if this works with ln-symmetry though, hrm 17:39 < Ademan> if you are trying to RBF to get the latest channel state into a block, you screw up all of the "downstream" transactions for unrolling the channel state I think? 17:45 -!- BUSY [~BUSY@user/busy] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 18:46 < Ademan> actually, might be a way, but I think it requires the settlement transaction to have an output for each party, and there'd need to be two versions of every channel update and settlement, one for each party, so it's not really ln-symmetry anymore I guess. 18:49 < Ademan> so I guess N_INPUTS is also needed for this to be useful to ln-symmetry, and then pinning is a problem, sorry for the noise. I think this was useful to think about (aloud) and I appreciate everyone humoring me 19:59 -!- nmatrix [~linuxwork@2601:640:8d80:8df0::8490] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 20:14 -!- nmatrix [~linuxwork@2601:640:8d80:8df0::8490] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:32 -!- Ademan_ [~Ademan@47.185.95.178] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 21:34 -!- pablomartin [~pablomart@193.203.14.54] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds] 21:53 -!- Ademan [~ademan@47.185.95.178] has quit [Quit: leaving] 22:21 -!- Ademan [~ademan@47.185.95.178] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 22:30 -!- Ademan [~ademan@47.185.95.178] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds] 22:42 -!- iamzim [~iamzim@user/invaderzim] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 22:46 -!- Ademan [~ademan@47.185.95.178] has joined #bitcoin-wizards 23:34 -!- iamzim [~iamzim@user/invaderzim] has left #bitcoin-wizards [] 23:51 -!- tromp [~textual@92-110-219-57.cable.dynamic.v4.ziggo.nl] has joined #bitcoin-wizards --- Log closed Wed Jan 31 00:00:45 2024