2014-10-26.log

--- Log opened Sun Oct 26 00:00:29 2014
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manakado you guys think that sidechains will ever become centralized00:35
sipasidechains are an idea... some specific sidechains may well be centralized00:36
manakaok, but do you see a way to centralize all blockchains to a single sidechain?00:37
sipasure, make bitcoin a frontend for paypal00:37
sipai mean: of course that is possible if people want that - but why would we want that?00:37
manakawhat i mean is make a sidechain a connector of all blockchains00:38
sipasidechains are just depending on independent blockchains that support looking at eachother00:39
sipayour question really doesn't make sense00:39
sipawhat is a 'connector' ?00:39
manakasomething like blocknet00:39
manakathey are doing a p2p cross trading00:39
manakaand tokenizing it00:39
siparight :)00:40
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TaekI realize that the implementation is likely to be different for each sidechain, but where do block subidies come from for miners on sidechains? Just fees?09:53
siparead the paper09:53
sipasection 6.109:54
Taek>.< sorry09:54
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fds4345Hows about an evolutionary algorithm as a proof of work? Choose a model of reasonable complexity, then the goal is to find a more efficient configuration (which should be easy to verify and to quantify).15:24
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nsh.head https://download.wpsoftware.net/bitcoin/alts.pdf15:29
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nsh.to andytoshi if your website down?15:29
yoleauxnsh: I'll pass your message to andytoshi.15:29
yoleauxnsh: Sorry, that command (.head) crashed.15:29
BlueMattnsh: iirc hes having problems with his canadian vps or something15:30
nshah15:30
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nshfds4345, have you read http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/bitcoin/alts.pdf ?15:32
nshnot sure there's a canonical write-up on the theoretic issues of 'useful' PoW algorithms15:33
nshprobably between several dozen stackexchange answers15:33
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nshe.g. https://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/questions/20879/why-cant-we-design-a-bitcoin-that-does-useful-work lists a few things15:33
nshbut doesn't mention progress-freeness15:34
nshoh, sorry, this pertains more than alts.pdf: http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/bitcoin/asic-faq.pdf15:35
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fds4345just read alts.pdf, didnt seem relevant (not complete either :))15:38
nshfds4345, so looking at that SE answer and sections 4,5 of asic-faq.pdf (but it wouldn't hurt to read it all), can you imagine a way to conserve those properties while (incidentally) searching some configuration space against an efficiency objective function?15:38
fds4345I have read asic-faq15:39
nshi don't think it's impossible in principle15:39
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nshbut i'm not sure you could achieve any kind of useful performance that would mean you're decreasing the total entropy production compared to having the mining and searching done separately15:41
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fds4345nsh: the algorithm is assumed to be brute force, and people should be encouraged to try to find inefficiencies in it just as any cryptographic algorithm is audited.15:44
Elielfds4345: hmmh... it's kind of difficult to say if what you suggest is progress free or not. That'd depend on implementation details. Also, sounds like it'd be difficult to tune the difficulty level.15:48
nshwell, you can have the difficulty be adjunct15:50
nsh(so you present a hash output with some amount of zeros with any valid solution)15:51
fds4345Well, I suppose that it's brute force. A "perfect" evolutionary model should be "non reversible". Otherwise there's an inefficiency in the model, which is itself interesting (but potentially not reconcilable with the delicate needs of a viable currency. As an investment though...)15:51
nshactually, maybe not that easy. nm15:51
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--- Log closed Mon Oct 27 00:00:31 2014

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