| --- Log opened Tue Nov 04 00:00:40 2014 | ||
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| gmaxwell | sipa: found a bug in frama-c while trying to prove that field multiply code correct. ... seems it is losing the typedefs when generating the theorems from the code... (stupidly I didn't notice that it was using 2^32-1 as the overflow check and wasted a bunch of time scratching my head as to why really simple theorems were not proving) | 00:07 |
|---|---|---|
| gmaxwell | Now we just need a GCC bug to know we've really been testing it well. (You know you might be doing at least a barely acceptable job testing your software when you've found several bugs in your tools/dependencies) | 00:08 |
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| phantomcircuit | gmaxwell, ha | 01:08 |
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| gmaxwell | boo ya | 01:24 |
| gmaxwell | S_r[0..1] ∈ [0..67108863] | 01:24 |
| gmaxwell | [2] ∈ [0..68157440] | 01:24 |
| gmaxwell | [3..8] ∈ [0..67108863] | 01:24 |
| gmaxwell | [9] ∈ [0..4194303] | 01:24 |
| sipa | hmm? | 01:31 |
| phantomcircuit | sipa, assuming he fixed the bug in frama-c | 01:31 |
| gmaxwell | thats the ranges of the output r[] on the 'old' versions of secp256k1_fe_mul_inner (10x26) | 01:32 |
| gmaxwell | the new one in pull 73 now is giving me | 01:32 |
| gmaxwell | S_r[0..8] ∈ [0..67108863] | 01:32 |
| gmaxwell | [9] ∈ [0..4194304] | 01:32 |
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| sipa | odd! | 01:33 |
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| sipa | 73 normalizes stronger? | 01:33 |
| sipa | oh, the new version of 73 may | 01:33 |
| gmaxwell | thats what value analysis is telling me. | 01:33 |
| sipa | i haven't looked at that yet | 01:34 |
| sipa | what does it say about the version in my opt-mul-sqr branch? (which contains an older version of 73) | 01:34 |
| gmaxwell | fortunately now that I have it working its no effort to run it again. | 01:34 |
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| gmaxwell | link me to the code? | 01:34 |
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| gmaxwell | the first numbers I gave were PR91. | 01:35 |
| sipa | https://github.com/sipa/secp256k1/tree/opt-mul-sqr | 01:35 |
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| sipa | oh, opt-mul-sqr == pr91 | 01:36 |
| sipa | yeah, that's expected | 01:36 |
| gmaxwell | yea. I was about to say. okay. | 01:36 |
| sipa | interesting that 73 normalizes stronger | 01:36 |
| gmaxwell | sqr in 73 is | 01:38 |
| gmaxwell | S_r[0..8] ∈ [0..67108863] | 01:38 |
| gmaxwell | [9] ∈ [0..4194304] | 01:38 |
| sipa | should be the same as mul, indeed | 01:39 |
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| gmaxwell | sipa: sadly, frama-c doesn't support the __int128, alas. | 01:47 |
| sipa | gmaxwell: also sadly, the rewritten 32-bit version seems slower when effectively compiled for 32-bit host | 01:51 |
| gmaxwell | yea, just saw that. weird. | 01:52 |
| gmaxwell | well not a shocker, probably running out of registers? | 01:52 |
| sipa | the new version should use less temporary values | 01:52 |
| sipa | but maybe the long-term ones were already swapped out of registers on 32-bit | 01:53 |
| sipa | and there are more short-term ones now | 01:53 |
| gmaxwell | try it on arm? | 01:53 |
| * sipa has none | 01:54 | |
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| gmaxwell | andytoshi: you see sipa is working on schnorr for libsecp256k1? https://github.com/bitcoin/secp256k1/pull/87 | 02:29 |
| gmaxwell | (including multisignatures) | 02:30 |
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| phantomcircuit | gmaxwell, neat | 02:40 |
| phantomcircuit | sipa, ^ | 02:40 |
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| andytoshi | gmaxwell: oh, nice! he told me that we was working on it (and had some disappointing perf improvements relative to what we'd hoped), but i hadn't seen the pull | 05:39 |
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| sipa | andytoshi: by now it should also have constant-time signing | 05:41 |
| sipa | (apart from potential doublings/cancellations in the addings, but a blinding mechanism prevents exploiting that) | 05:41 |
| andytoshi | the last couple days i've been trying to build cargo so that i can get back to rust dev and update the libsecp256k1 wrapper | 05:41 |
| sipa | cool | 05:41 |
| sipa | feel free to submit when it's clean enough | 05:42 |
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| andytoshi | cargo does not build from git HEAD right now, and i need a reasonably recent copy (i.e. not 2 months old) to do rust dev :/ | 05:42 |
| andytoshi | there is something like 5 commits/hour in the rust world, it's just a probabilistic game when it works :) | 05:43 |
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| kanzure | andytoshi: er, why don't they just not let people push to that branch unless it really, really works? | 05:58 |
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| andytoshi | kanzure: because there are like 20 different projects at play in a pre-1.0 environment moving at extremely high speed | 06:34 |
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| andytoshi | kanzure: even if there was one body in charge of them all the coordination hassle would freeze things. (fwiw people are claiming on IRC that the nightlies work. i have no disk space to try them) | 06:35 |
| andytoshi | kanzure: also the stdlib is what's changing, which is what causes almost all of the breakage. you can't block that in a pre-1.0 language | 06:36 |
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| kanzure | oh brother, developers running out of disk space | 06:41 |
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| gandalf | so is sidechains appendix B currently under development? | 11:30 |
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| cryptokeeper | who has some good documentation on side chains | 11:31 |
| cryptokeeper | i know basics and thats it... want moar info | 11:31 |
| andytoshi | cryptokeeper: the whitepaper is best documentation right now | 11:32 |
| Luke-Jr | cryptokeeper: http://blockstream.com/sidechains.pdf | 11:32 |
| cryptokeeper | thank you sirs | 11:32 |
| cryptokeeper | after i am done studying my vmware shit i want to go over that | 11:32 |
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| amiller | gandalf, the appendix B right now lays out a lot of good approaches but IMO more work is needed and its ongoing | 11:49 |
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| maaku | gandalf: yes-ish. I have an open pull request that does the commitment mechanism | 12:35 |
| maaku | and the scheme under consideration re-uses patricia trie stuff I've done for UTXO commitments | 12:35 |
| maaku | using a heap structure that has been worked out, but still some work to be done in getting a reference implementation | 12:35 |
| gandalf | sidechains will have a speed limit since they are blockchain based, are there any blockchain alternatives like maidsafe's transaction manager or Ripple? | 12:38 |
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| maaku | everything has a speed limit. there are certainly plenty of opportunites for alternative architectures | 12:39 |
| maaku | but those can be sidechains too | 12:39 |
| maaku | you send bitcoin to a sidechain which understands the alt ledger achitecture, and works as a middleman | 12:40 |
| gandalf | how does blockstream plan to make money on this? | 12:40 |
| gandalf | hoping for consulting services is nice, but the effort reward ratio seems off compared to other ventures. | 12:40 |
| maaku | http://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/2k3u97/we_are_bitcoin_sidechain_paper_authors_adam_back/clhoo7d | 12:41 |
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| happycamper | hello | 14:03 |
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| HM_ | something that occurs to me is that the Bitcoin RPC could be protected by TLS-SRP | 15:02 |
| HM_ | it'd eliminate the complexity of having certificates | 15:02 |
| HM_ | sadly wouldn't play nicely with scriptable http/json clients though | 15:03 |
| justanotheruser | HM_: the bitcoin RPC really shouldn't be accessed over the net in general | 15:05 |
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| HM_ | then why does it support SSL? ;) | 15:07 |
| justanotheruser | because people do it anyways. | 15:08 |
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| HM_ | people can hijack your traffic on a LAN | 15:11 |
| justanotheruser | you shouldn't do it over LAN if thats a risk | 15:11 |
| HM_ | malware on your machine can connect to loopback... | 15:12 |
| justanotheruser | If you hvave malware on your machine, none of this is an issue anyways | 15:13 |
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| HM_ | your just a party pooper | 15:16 |
| HM_ | *you're | 15:16 |
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| gmaxwell | HM_: you should go implement SRP over secp256k1 and submit it to sipa's library. IIRC it can be implemented over any group where discrete log is hard. :P | 15:20 |
| HM_ | yes, but then you'd need your own custom transport protocol. | 15:21 |
| HM_ | since, I'm pretty sure TLS doesn't support mythical SRP-EC | 15:21 |
| gmaxwell | HM_: not so, since you could authenticate the ssl session from within it. :) | 15:22 |
| HM_ | what would that even be called hmm... SRP-ECDSA? | 15:22 |
| gmaxwell | ECSRP I guess. certantly not ECDSA, since there would be no DSA in it. | 15:22 |
| HM_ | but there's a method called SRP-DSS in the TLS spec | 15:23 |
| gmaxwell | Yea, but almost nothing implements it. | 15:23 |
| HM_ | yeah, i was looking at the wiki page | 15:23 |
| gmaxwell | And god knows anything that does is probably even more buggy than everything that implements TLS already is. | 15:23 |
| HM_ | perhaps | 15:24 |
| HM_ | SRP is easier to verify than anything using certificates | 15:24 |
| gmaxwell | yea, I like that you brought it up. we've talked before about having authenticated peerings for the p2p protocol with some custom encrypted transport before... supporting SPR natively would be nice. (e.g. your choice of asymetric key or SRP auth) | 15:25 |
| HM_ | SPR? | 15:25 |
| gmaxwell | typo | 15:26 |
| HM_ | the major problem with SRP is you still need a protocol for registration, and some out of band authentication method so you can trust the server while you register your username and password | 15:27 |
| HM_ | like a CA | 15:27 |
| gmaxwell | sure, SRP is no silver bullet by any means, it just basically makes any case where you'd use a password better. | 15:28 |
| HM_ | in that respect it's not much better than trusting a CA and then pinning the certificate | 15:28 |
| HM_ | oh absolutely | 15:28 |
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| HM_ | I've been writing a toy echo server using TLS-SRP + GnuTLS before I consider integrating it in to some other projects | 15:30 |
| gmaxwell | part of the recent SRP hasn't been adopted is because lucent was patent-fuding it and all other password based key exchange schemes; but the patents lucent was abusing for that have now expired (and didn't apply to SRP anyways, but whatever) | 15:30 |
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| HM_ | Afaict the only broadly workable alternative is local binding + SSH | 15:30 |
| gmaxwell | HM_: why not write a bitcoind rpc wrapper? I'd like to get TLS out of the daemon entirely. E.g. it could run in a seperate process. would make supporting things like SRP easier. | 15:31 |
| HM_ | or something like libssh | 15:31 |
| phantomcircuit | gmaxwell, seems like pretty much everything except for the consensus code should be moved into a separate process | 15:32 |
| HM_ | gmaxwell, and locally bind plaintext? | 15:32 |
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| HM_ | world <--tcp/tls --> wrapper <-- tcp/clean --> bitcoind | 15:32 |
| HM_ | I'm not sure if that's wise if you move the authentication to the wrapper | 15:34 |
| gmaxwell | HM_: it could even be a unix domain socket or whatever between bitcoind and the wrapper. The rational would be to get the huge attack surface of TLS out of the daemon. You can use stunnel for this already, but it doesn't get you things like SRP support. | 15:34 |
| HM_ | sure, socketpair and execve | 15:36 |
| HM_ | no idea about how you'd go about it on Windows though | 15:36 |
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| phantomcircuit | gmaxwell, would probably be easier to add srp to stunnel than bitcoind though :P | 15:44 |
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| HM_ | he has a point, stunnel relies on openssl, which implements srp as of 1.0.1 | 15:45 |
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| HM_ | https://www.stunnel.org/versions.html <-- this scares me | 15:46 |
| gmaxwell | not interested in adding any anything to bitcoind atm. I would like to have an alternative P2P transport that support auth/encrypt (and doesn't use TLS because TLS is a huge attack vector). But thats seperate. | 15:46 |
| moa | gnuTLS | 15:46 |
| gmaxwell | all TLS implementations are a disaster, some know it better than others. | 15:46 |
| moa | ha | 15:47 |
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| moa | whatever gets the job done sometimes | 15:47 |
| phantomcircuit | moa, gnutls was a decent idea poorly implemented | 15:47 |
| phantomcircuit | the docs were wrong until recently | 15:47 |
| moa | just throwing another option into the mix | 15:47 |
| HM_ | having used gnutls today, i'll take it over openssl anyday | 15:49 |
| phantomcircuit | i would bet that libressl will be the best implementation (if it's not already) | 15:49 |
| HM_ | botan supports SRP apparently | 15:49 |
| moa | " I would like to have an alternative P2P transport that support auth/encrypt (and doesn't use TLS because TLS is a huge attack vector). But thats seperate." <---- but this sounds great | 15:49 |
| HM_ | if you want respect the only realistic alternative is SSH | 15:50 |
| HM_ | the only 3rd option i know of is zeromq's curvecp based transport | 15:50 |
| HM_ | and i'm not sure i'd take that seriously yet | 15:50 |
| gmaxwell | nonsense. | 15:51 |
| HM_ | which bit? | 15:51 |
| gmaxwell | (The SSH transport has also had a bad history too; including some long standing nasty exploitable vulnerabilties) | 15:51 |
| moa | shhh | 15:51 |
| gmaxwell | All of them suffer from too much flexibility. | 15:52 |
| phantomcircuit | my favorite is environment variables transfered over ssh | 15:52 |
| phantomcircuit | which is just bizarre | 15:52 |
| moa | but really cool and useful | 15:52 |
| phantomcircuit | how is that useful? | 15:53 |
| moa | for taking control of remote machines that is | 15:53 |
| HM_ | gmaxwell, then maybe this is closer to your desired transport http://curvezmq.org/page:read-the-docs | 15:53 |
| moa | IPSec? | 15:55 |
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| phantomcircuit | moa, ipsec == nasty | 15:55 |
| gmaxwell | HM_: I'm familar with it. We already have a MACed transport in bitcoin, it's just unkeyed. | 15:55 |
| HM_ | moa, Ipsec solves no real world problems | 15:56 |
| moa | but gets lots of use nontheless ... pick your posion | 15:56 |
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| HM_ | bah, why the smeg did the zeromq guys factor out their secure protocol to libcurve if it depends on libzmq | 15:57 |
| gmaxwell | moa: not really, a very very narrow subset of IPSEC gets used. (basically for point to point tunnels) It's really highly inapplicable to anything application level. | 15:58 |
| HM_ | it even depends on their C binding :S | 15:58 |
| phantomcircuit | moa, afaict ipsec is only used because it's free on cisco equipment vs their ssl vpn | 15:58 |
| gmaxwell | HM_: no shock there. | 15:58 |
| phantomcircuit | i would bet that's like 99% of use | 15:58 |
| HM_ | i tried setting up IPSec/L2TP tunneling, it was a nightmare....ended up just using OpenVPN... then i realised that sucked too and just use SSH + SOCKS these days when on the road | 15:59 |
| moa | right, but cisco routers are a big deal | 15:59 |
| HM_ | good old ssh -D | 15:59 |
| HM_ | so I leak DNS, meh | 15:59 |
| moa | so total traffic on IPsec is not small | 15:59 |
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| HM_ | gmaxwell, isn't the crux of the problem that bitcoind is both a blockchain information server and a user wallet manager? | 16:13 |
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| HM_ | i don't think moving SSL out of the daemon makes any sense until there's nothing sensitive flowing to and from it | 16:14 |
| phantomcircuit | HM_, sort of | 16:14 |
| phantomcircuit | the daemon is sensitive | 16:15 |
| phantomcircuit | the consensus state is itself sensitive, doubly so if you have a wallet that trusts it | 16:15 |
| gmaxwell | HM_: lol sort of the opposite. SSL should be out of it because SSL is an epic failure security disaster n-times in the running. | 16:16 |
| HM_ | but authentication is another matter. | 16:16 |
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| gmaxwell | Really the RPC is intended to be used locally, the SSL is not a default thing; and is a PITA to setup. | 16:16 |
| HM_ | there's "am i authorized to use this wallet" user auth, and then there's "i am the blockchain/consensus thingy you want to trust" auth between the client and the daemon | 16:17 |
| gmaxwell | "Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." | 16:17 |
| phantomcircuit | gmaxwell, it's good that ssl is annoying to setup | 16:18 |
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| phantomcircuit | otherwise people would try to use it on public interfaces | 16:18 |
| HM_ | I take it bitcoind can't run as a Windows system service for instance, and then expect different users to be able to use the GUI to use their wallets? | 16:18 |
| phantomcircuit | HM_, not today, maybe soon | 16:19 |
| HM_ | cool | 16:19 |
| gmaxwell | HM_: have you like.. not ever used the software? | 16:19 |
| HM_ | not for like... 2 years? | 16:19 |
| gmaxwell | the "GUI" is not a front end on it, its a monolithic program, and an either or today. | 16:19 |
| gmaxwell | Seperation will probably result in the wallet being made a SPV client to the daemon, so there is less of an authentication issue there. | 16:20 |
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| HM_ | sure, so authentication is implicit in being able to decrypt the wallet db | 16:20 |
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| HM_ | It doesn't sound like you're going to need anything protecting the RPC at that point unless you want to be able to issue shutdown commands. | 16:22 |
| HM_ | or mess with peers, like trusted or preferred peers. | 16:22 |
| gmaxwell | which RPC are you talking about there? Because if the wallet were seperate there would be two rpcs. | 16:23 |
| HM_ | why? | 16:23 |
| gmaxwell | ... | 16:23 |
| gmaxwell | Because 90% of the things people do with the RPC is talk to the wallet. | 16:23 |
| HM_ | right, but why do you need an RPC between the GUI and the wallet, that can be monolithic? | 16:24 |
| HM_ | (or compiled against a library) | 16:24 |
| phantomcircuit | HM_, wallet communicates with full node using p2p protocol as an spv client | 16:25 |
| gmaxwell | sure that would be but ... surprise there are a great many people who use bitcoin that are not using the GUI. ... uh like every single merchant service. | 16:25 |
| kanzure | separation of concerns, there's no reason for a wallet frontend to have to strongly consider p2p protocol stuff, for example | 16:25 |
| phantomcircuit | you would authenticate that connection | 16:25 |
| gmaxwell | HM_: I've enjoyed your contribtions in the past but like.. come on, actually use the software please. Testnet coins are free. | 16:25 |
| phantomcircuit | doing that the security of the spv wallet is equal to that of a full node wallet | 16:25 |
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| HM_ | Why would a merchant service need an RPC if they were using a 'libwallet' library that let them interact safely with encrypted wallets and establish connections to the daemon? | 16:27 |
| HM_ | effectively you put the client library in to all your nodes | 16:27 |
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| HM_ | oh I see, SPVs communicate via the P2P protocol to get block headers | 16:31 |
| HM_ | no I was referring to the 'trusted peer' model for client-server separation | 16:31 |
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| gmaxwell | HM_: there isn't a great reason to introduce yet another externally visible protocol, we already have a client protocol... one that tends to have pretty good security properties. | 16:34 |
| gmaxwell | e.g. even a malicious server can only do so much to it. | 16:34 |
| HM_ | another protocol? | 16:34 |
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| HM_ | Wallet on disk <---> user GUI <--- RPC --> bitcoind <-----> P2P network is what I was suggesting, so the user interface trusts bitcoind entirely | 16:36 |
| HM_ | no SPV | 16:36 |
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| phantomcircuit | user GUI <--- RPC --> bitcoind | 16:40 |
| phantomcircuit | nooooo | 16:40 |
| HM_ | i think you're suggesting you put authentication in to the P2P network so people can run SPV and decide set which nodes to trust with confidence? | 16:40 |
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| HM_ | phantomcircuit, why not? | 16:41 |
| phantomcircuit | HM_, authenticated spv | 16:44 |
| phantomcircuit | limit trust between components without significant additional cost | 16:44 |
| phantomcircuit | simply the system, dont complicate it | 16:44 |
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| moa | simplify? | 16:45 |
| phantomcircuit | reduce complexity | 16:45 |
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| phantomcircuit | modularize | 16:45 |
| phantomcircuit | magicify | 16:46 |
| phantomcircuit | etc | 16:46 |
| moa | awesome | 16:46 |
| moa | consultants gotta make a living too though | 16:46 |
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| HM_ | phantomcircuit, so if I want to integrate bitcoin payments in to a game right now, I have to put my private key in to bitcoinds hands and then use the RPC | 16:48 |
| HM_ | (or use a 3rd party payment solution) | 16:48 |
| HM_ | how is that a simplification? | 16:48 |
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| moa | what's a perfectly good protocol without additional layers of kruft and jargon to make it "user-friendly" and "human-readable"? ... probably worthless | 16:49 |
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| phantomcircuit | HM_, you're taking the wallet code out of bitcoind | 16:51 |
| HM_ | phantomcircuit, yup | 16:51 |
| HM_ | what's it needed in there for? bloom filtering? | 16:51 |
| phantomcircuit | but that allows you to then go and remove additional code in bitcoind which basically only exists to support the wallet code | 16:52 |
| HM_ | sounds good? | 16:52 |
| phantomcircuit | it is good | 16:52 |
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| HM_ | the insinuation right now is that SPV clients are light enough to embed everywhere | 16:55 |
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| HM_ | i don't think that's the case | 16:55 |
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| HM_ | if i have an Android game that takes payments for things, i'm not going to embed an SPV client in to it... i'll just go use Googles payment solution | 16:56 |
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| maaku | HM_: why would you have an SPV client in the game? | 16:57 |
| maaku | there should be an SPV client running on the phone, yes, with a service API exposed to the game | 16:57 |
| HM_ | exactly | 16:59 |
| maaku | maybe i'm confused. that counts as embedding in my book (it's on the device) | 17:00 |
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| HM_ | Google don't make to talk HTTP to use In-app billing | 17:01 |
| HM_ | the SPV client isn't an app on a phone, it's a system service | 17:01 |
| HM_ | alternatively run it on a remote machine and authenticate to it | 17:02 |
| HM_ | (e.g. a full node) | 17:02 |
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| HM_ | that way it doesn't need to eat battery | 17:02 |
| HM_ | my tuppence anyway | 17:03 |
| HM_ | not everyone keeps their PC on 24/7 like me ;) but i quite like the idea of my phone using SPV while i'm on the move but a home run full-node while I'm connected to my home wifi | 17:07 |
| HM_ | you can't do that right now without toggling the trusted peer settings in Andreas's app | 17:08 |
| HM_ | and that doesn't offer any solution to other apps on your phone | 17:08 |
| HM_ | ...meh | 17:16 |
| HM_ | apparently Andreas does have a library | 17:16 |
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| HM_ | oh well, i guess I need to go away and read :P | 17:24 |
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| tacotime | etlase finally released his whitepaper http://www.decrits.net/decrits-consensus.pdf | 18:14 |
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| tacotime | i still don't comprehend it | 18:15 |
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| kanzure | this proposal looks like one that was thoroughly debunked in here | 18:18 |
| kanzure | regarding some set of signers that collude and knowing the state of all blockchains or something | 18:18 |
| tacotime | "Like Bitcoin’s genesis block, the Decrits software will contain a genesis CB that contains a list of public keys in the VL representing the initial Voices of the network. In lieu of anonymous POW, these Voices are tasked with creating and protecting the network history." | 18:19 |
| tacotime | um... hm. | 18:19 |
| kanzure | yeah this is in the logs somewhere. | 18:19 |
| tacotime | the original thread is long and somewhat incomprehensible https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=189239.0 | 18:20 |
| tacotime | and features epic keyboard battles between anonymint and etlase | 18:21 |
| moa | who are possibly the person? | 18:22 |
| moa | the same person | 18:22 |
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| tacotime | moa: that seems like a reasonable conclusion | 18:22 |
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| moa | who's doing the work on putting uxto hash in block headers? ... and is there a github branch or similar yet? | 18:31 |
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| moa | https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=204283.0 ... this? | 18:34 |
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| maaku | moa: me, when I have time to work on it | 18:59 |
| maaku | (raised funds ran out, have some support from blockstream to do this, but not a priority) | 18:59 |
| maaku | re code, there's a hashmap branch on my github that needs rebasing | 18:59 |
| maaku | and some rework with lessons learnt | 19:00 |
| moa | maaku: ah, thanks thought so ... this is related also https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/3977 ? | 19:01 |
| maaku | yes that is the commitment mechanism I'd prefer | 19:01 |
| maaku | results in deterministic overhead in proof size | 19:01 |
| maaku | i separated it out because there are other proposals which benefit from it, e.g. appdx b of the sidechains paper | 19:03 |
| moa | i see | 19:03 |
| moa | interesting stuff | 19:05 |
| maaku | seems like it needs a rebase; i'll do that now | 19:05 |
| moa | i'll take it for a test drive | 19:05 |
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| maaku | #3977 i mean | 19:11 |
| maaku | the hashmap stuff is unfinished | 19:11 |
| moa | yep | 19:13 |
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| maaku | moa: pushed | 19:44 |
| moa | k | 19:46 |
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