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| andytoshi | webdeli: there is a git repo, but not wit hthat commit in it | 04:55 |
|---|---|---|
| webdeli | ok. | 04:56 |
| andytoshi | webdeli: https://github.com/apoelstra/sidechains-whitepaper | 04:56 |
| justanotheruser | andytoshi: is that main? | 04:56 |
| andytoshi | the "real" repo has a ton of binary pdfs and weird make targets in it | 04:56 |
| andytoshi | and like 5 million autocommits | 04:56 |
| andytoshi | justanotheruser: what do you mean? | 04:57 |
| justanotheruser | andytoshi: is that the main branch | 04:57 |
| justanotheruser | it seems you just answered that though | 04:57 |
| justanotheruser | I was wondering why that wasn't under the blockstream github.. | 04:57 |
| webdeli | I see. The question behind the question arises from idle curiosity about ceremony an practice between the authors that provided for a Git commit on a whitepaper. | 04:57 |
| andytoshi | webdeli: it's just a revision no, it happens to be a git commit id but that isn't actually stated anywhere | 04:58 |
| webdeli | My personal parallel use-case being - creating (ideally in Git / not Google docs) an open an co-authored document - an association's memorandum of incorporation - and specifically for the Bitcoin Co-Working Space @ MBTC | 04:59 |
| webdeli | (Melbourne Bitcoin Technology Centre) | 04:59 |
| webdeli | Roger that. | 05:00 |
| andytoshi | webdeli: ah, you can steal the code from the sidechains wp, but you also need a couple git hooks ... one sec | 05:00 |
| andytoshi | webdeli: post-checkout post-commit post-merge post-rewrite should all be https://gist.github.com/apoelstra/0813427350c169a7536b | 05:01 |
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| webdeli | And I take to understand my best entry point to understanding the workflow employed is here: http://mirror.unl.edu/ctan/macros/latex/contrib/gitinfo/gitinfo.pdf yes? | 05:05 |
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| andytoshi | it's worth skimming that -- i didn't read it too carefully | 05:07 |
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| andytoshi | just copied out the githooks, added the commands to the doc to put the commit id in | 05:07 |
| andytoshi | then forgot about it | 05:08 |
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| webdeli | Right... Now done. So in esssence - TeX is the sourcecode for the PDF. (Yes I am using these words by analogy rather than by absolute definition). | 05:17 |
| webdeli | I appreciate you providing the links to these repositories. | 05:17 |
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| sipa | i don't see how it would not be true in the absolute definition :) | 05:18 |
| webdeli | Now let me withdraw back into the shadows to do organisational work once more.. once I catch some rest. | 05:18 |
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| webdeli | This actually started for me 10 hours ago opening up the "Enabling Blockchain Innovations with Pegged Sidechains" whitepaper with a view to delve into the detail of the idea therein. At least to the extent that I might come to understand the mechanism proposed. | 05:20 |
| webdeli | Commentary (unsurprisingly) in the Bitcoin press has been at an overview and 'hand-wavy' then 'magic happens' kind of level. | 05:21 |
| webdeli | Bodes understanding a little more. I hope to get it by reading. | 05:21 |
| webdeli | So far no good - only on page one I go down this Git commit on a PDF rabbit hole. Tomorrow page 2 and beyond. | 05:22 |
| webdeli | Thank you so much (all) for the value you are contributing to Bitcoin core and the dialogue around the evolution of the Bitcoin protocol. | 05:22 |
| webdeli | Bitcoin is fundamentally most interesting mental and commercial pursuit I personally identify where I personally hold some reasonable of adding value in associated business / apps and software services. | 05:24 |
| webdeli | *Rambling. Sleep time. G'night. | 05:24 |
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| kanzure | haha you're telling me that blockstream believes in autocommits? that sounds unlikely :) | 06:29 |
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| andytoshi | i was the only one autocommiting ;) | 07:14 |
| andytoshi | or was that a pun? | 07:14 |
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| kanzure | no, it's just that developers tend to be opinionated and against autocommits, that's all | 07:29 |
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| sipa | writing a paper is not development! </notruescotchman> | 07:30 |
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| tacotime | gmaxwell: i think there's a proof of stake signing scheme for darkcoin for 'instant tx' or something | 07:38 |
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| tacotime | where 'masternodes' with 1000 DRK receive a tx and sign for it, and then apparently the network decides that's the correct version of the tx and that it can't be double spent | 07:38 |
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| tacotime | kanzure: doesn't freimarkets offer centralized ledger systems? | 07:52 |
| kanzure | haven't looked | 07:52 |
| tacotime | there's a whitepaper out there somewhere, and the devs jtimon and maaku are usually here | 07:52 |
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| tacotime | oh, this is that darkcoin 'instant tx' noise: https://www.darkcoin.io/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/InstantTX.pdf | 08:51 |
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| justanotheruser | tacotime: and if a group signs conflicting tx, consensus is broken foreven :D | 08:55 |
| justanotheruser | I mean a supermajority does | 08:55 |
| wumpus | it sounds quite fragile | 08:55 |
| justanotheruser | so just wait for the block where supernodes colluse (every block a new set of supernodes are selected) | 08:55 |
| tacotime | justanotheruser: yeah i was wondering about that | 08:55 |
| tacotime | and what the heck happens in the event that a miner decides he wants to mine a conflicting tx | 08:56 |
| justanotheruser | tacotime: his block is invalid | 08:56 |
| tacotime | ... | 08:56 |
| wumpus | and vulnerable to sybil attacks? is 1000 DRK a lot? | 08:56 |
| tacotime | wumpus: not for an exchange :) | 08:56 |
| justanotheruser | wumpus: fairly expensive | 08:56 |
| justanotheruser | about $2600 | 08:57 |
| wumpus | ok | 08:57 |
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| tacotime | so if the blocks can be invalidated at will, doesn't the whole system boil down to a sort of PoS? | 08:58 |
| wumpus | yes, it is PoS | 08:58 |
| tacotime | and it looks instantaneous too, so if an exchange gets hacked, it's game over | 08:59 |
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| justanotheruser | but don't worry about the attacks on this darkcoin proposal. I was assured by a darkcoin dev that "once consensus is established, it cannot be broken" (near exact paraphrase). | 09:05 |
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| tacotime | perfect | 09:08 |
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| * justanotheruser deletes blockchain | 09:10 | |
| dgenr8 | the DRK video shows a transaction instantly getting "6 confirmations" and he apologized for it not having the check-mark icon. so they'll just get that cleaned up, and it's off to the races | 09:11 |
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| * justanotheruser considers opening http://yesthiscoinisascamandwillfailbutitusesbrokensecurityassumptionsunlikebitco.in/ | 09:13 | |
| justanotheruser | that way people will know that its failure doesn't represent a bitcoin failure and aren't turned away | 09:13 |
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| tdlfbx | Hey you could set up a round robin DNS for that domain to point to all the scam coins. ;-) | 09:18 |
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| maaku | tacotime: it does | 09:37 |
| maaku | *freimarkets does provide private ledger systems | 09:37 |
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| dgenr8 | what if lock request conflicts with a tx already seen? do clients only lock txes sometimes? what happens if miner doesn't include a locked tx? how does one know "once the lock has reached everyone"? | 11:32 |
| justanotheruser | dgenr8: I think they ignore conflicting tx and propogate accepted tx | 11:35 |
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| dgenr8 | does lock consensus mean unanimity? what if a block is found before the next masternode cohort is chosen? | 11:41 |
| justanotheruser | dgenr8: btw, most of this isn't in the whitepaper, I am just going by what some dev told me | 11:43 |
| justanotheruser | (darkcoin dev) | 11:43 |
| dgenr8 | you seem to know everybody | 11:43 |
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| justanotheruser | and I forgot what their "solution" to that was, but I'm pretty sure I asked. I'm pretty sure they just said their usual "if masternodes try any funny business they'll get voted out, also, we can fork if something goes wrong". | 11:47 |
| dgenr8 | if they ignore existing conflicts then they have the same problem as the "partial confirm" proposals. They are a tool of the double spender. | 11:48 |
| dgenr8 | so that implies everyone locks all the time | 11:48 |
| justanotheruser | and you can discuss these papers on their subreddits, but I have found that 90% of the time it isn't worth the time since the responses tend to be "FUD" "FUDer" and "stop spreading this FUD, you have no idea what you're talking about you idiot. Didn't you read the paper, their solution is X you moron" | 11:49 |
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| justanotheruser | (that is how I "know" everybody) | 11:49 |
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| justanotheruser | a dev actually did give me some cool headed responses, though they weren't promising | 11:49 |
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| dgenr8 | ok. well anyway, it's possible to make the 0-conf results generally better, but all this PoS stuff seems pointless and a couple seconds is not possible. nothing quantitative on time at all in the paper | 11:51 |
| justanotheruser | dgenr8: there are ways, but I don't know any solutions other than scorched earth that don't involve invoking trust | 11:52 |
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| instagibbs | seems like they'd be better off doing GA.it-style 0-conf, maybe with signer also doing some sorta masternode-style staking of some funds that disappear if double-spends detected | 11:53 |
| instagibbs | make the trust explicit, rather than hiding it | 11:53 |
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| justanotheruser | ya... you could just trust the masternodes and have "darkcoin-super-original-0-conf-spend" which would be an implementation of another thing already done in bitcoin, 2-of-2 | 11:54 |
| instagibbs | exactly my point | 11:55 |
| gmaxwell | instagibbs: agreed. (wrt bonding. ... well, so there is an issue there that the losses from doublespending are unbounded, so bonding is a pretty weak protection against actual evil... may protect more against carelessness) | 11:55 |
| gmaxwell | Of course ... doing that kind of protection works fine in bitcoin already, no need to pump an altcoin for it. | 11:55 |
| gmaxwell | though they could perhaps have the doublespending bonds, since currently bitcoin script is not powerful enough to make that work. | 11:56 |
| instagibbs | gmaxwell: You could bound the losses by making co-signing keys public... with a huge loss in privacy of course | 11:56 |
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| instagibbs | maybe not, nevermind | 11:57 |
| gmaxwell | instagibbs: it doesn't bound the losses. yea. | 11:57 |
| instagibbs | because they could gather txns | 11:57 |
| instagibbs | then released all at once | 11:57 |
| gmaxwell | you just doublespend ALL THE PEOPLE at once. | 11:57 |
| gmaxwell | yep. | 11:57 |
| instagibbs | derp | 11:57 |
| gmaxwell | yea, to prevent that you need a consensus system. Yo dawg. | 11:58 |
| instagibbs | Re-inventing blockchains, all the way down | 11:58 |
| gmaxwell | But thats okay; really if you use all the available tools then mostly whant you need to protect against is carelessness and bonds may be adequate for that. | 11:58 |
| instagibbs | Well people seem to be totally ok with trusting central servers; getting people on 2-of-2 arrangements would still be huge win. Not going to lose sleep over it. | 12:03 |
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| gmaxwell | instagibbs: well don't be too eager there, "people" != "altcoin pumpers" the issue there is that the altcoin pumping people are going to be excited about anything that promotes their altcoin, regardless of the security model; people who were thinking carefully about security left already (or never were involved there)... but yea sure, I guess the success of bc.i is evidence for your claim. | 12:04 |
| instagibbs | Broad brush, etc :) | 12:05 |
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| instagibbs | I don't think the cause is lost. But it's education... which takes quite a while. | 12:06 |
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| dgenr8 | justanotheruser: bitcoin has all the tools. defining agreement on 0-conf primacy to include a 30-second safety margin, and a relatively weak link to enforcement by miners is enough. | 12:30 |
| dgenr8 | justanotheruser: see https://github.com/dgenr8/out-there/blob/master/ds-dep-win.md | 12:31 |
| justanotheruser | dgenr8: "The only action a node takes under this rule is to act temporarily as though it has not yet received a certain block. No consensus failure is possible" | 12:33 |
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| justanotheruser | what incentive is there to delay this miners block? If I was a miner I would start on what is most likely to be the next block right away. Consensus harm is possible. If it takes a minute for a block to "propogate" (propogate in the sense that a miner starts working on it) then 1/10 blocks will be reorged out | 12:34 |
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| gmaxwell | dgenr8: I don't think your proposal is logically coherent or workable. I tried before to explain how it creates vulnerabilities and doesn't achieve its goal, and if it could work we wouldn't need a blockchain at all... I've given up continuing to repeat myself however, since you continue to advance similar proposals without any sign of understanding the reaction you're getting. | 12:37 |
| dgenr8 | justanotheruser: If a small amount of hash power adopts, it becomes economical for others to follow. This is quantified in the proposal. | 12:37 |
| helo | propagation isn't a binary event... if it takes 60 seconds to fully (say to 95% of nodes) propagate, i would guess that the average time to see a new block would be 40 seconds or so | 12:37 |
| helo | but fast nodes with fast peers can probably see new blocks much faster than the average | 12:38 |
| dgenr8 | gmaxwell: i added a whole section with quantitative reasoning in response to your most recent remarks. what did you think of it? | 12:39 |
| dgenr8 | helo: the entire distribution of tx propagation times is used as a basis for reasoning and deriving a 30-second threshold as workable | 12:40 |
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| justanotheruser | dgenr8: you've got to consider what happens when I generate a block on top of the new block that is supposed to be delayed while everyone else is working on the old block. If one miner mines a new block and I mine a new block then my block is on the tallest chain. I can forge timestamps and all that good stuff to make it look like I accounted for the delay too. | 12:46 |
| justanotheruser | This example demonstrates the lack of incentive to ignore a new block | 12:46 |
| dgenr8 | justanotheruser: network instantly accepts it (C = 1) timestamps don't play into it | 12:47 |
| justanotheruser | s/If one miner mines a new block and I mine a new block then my block is on the tallest chain./If a block is mined on the old chain you're "supposed" to be working on and you generate a block on top of the delayed block, your block is in the tallest chain./ | 12:48 |
| dgenr8 | justanotheruser: think back to your choice of where to mine though | 12:48 |
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| justanotheruser | dgenr8: timestamps can be irrelevant then | 12:48 |
| justanotheruser | I'm not sure how that fixes the problem. | 12:48 |
| dgenr8 | justanotheruser: sorry, think back to the guy who included the double-spend's choice. | 12:50 |
| justanotheruser | there is a strong incentive to work on the tallest block unless *no-one* else is working on it. | 12:50 |
| dgenr8 | justanotheruser: no, the block reward is so big compared to any DS fees, he isn't going to risk it. | 12:51 |
| justanotheruser | dgenr8: not sure how you prevent him from getting the block reward or what he is risking | 12:51 |
| dgenr8 | justanotheruser: this is quantified. if 100% delay his block, it costs him 25btc to a first approximation | 12:52 |
| justanotheruser | dgenr8: sure, but what is the incentive for anyone to "delay" his block? | 12:52 |
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| dgenr8 | justanotheruser: depending on assumptions, only a very small amount of hash power has to be concerned enough with the network becoming opaque to double-spends to implement this rule | 12:53 |
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| justanotheruser | dgenr8: so you propose >50% not mining a taller fork in general because it contains doublespends, or what is your mechanism preventing the hash power from going towards processing the more economical blocks? | 12:55 |
| dgenr8 | justanotheruser: per proposal, if there is just one double-spend "premium" to be claimed, the break-even number is .24% of hash power. | 12:55 |
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| justanotheruser | dgenr8: right, so you're incentivizing forcing reorgs | 12:56 |
| dgenr8 | no reorgs with c = 1 | 12:57 |
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| dgenr8 | a "delayer" could be implemented as a preprocessor outside of the main block accept logic, though depending on how much validation was done this would not be as efficient as doing it inside that logic | 13:02 |
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| dgenr8 | the delayer wouldn't get used much though. what would actually happen is miners would stop including double-spends whose gap from tx1 was in the deprecated window (for ex: (30s, 2hr)). which is the goal | 13:06 |
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| dgenr8 | i don't think i've expressed this directly enough -- there is a cascade effect. delays could also be used for things like including way too few transactions vs. what was available. | 13:19 |
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| OP_NULL | the darkcoin masternode stuff is actually very interesting from the standpoint of incentives. the masternodes now take a more significant portion of the block reward of the miners, so things are increasingly muddy in that regard. it’ll be interesting to see how they go balancing that as they risk devaluing mining until they are completely vulnerable. | 14:05 |
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| OP_NULL | justanotheruser: there's other strange things they haven't addressed with regards to network sanity. there's a limit to the number of masternodes, but it's not clear how that's enforced in a sensible way. | 14:10 |
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| scoobysnacking | hey guys, anyone had this issue with Bitcoind before? 2014-11-09 20:21:34 ERROR: CheckProofOfWork() : nBits below minimum work 2014-11-09 20:21:34 ERROR: ReadBlockFromDisk : Errors in block header | 14:14 |
| scoobysnacking | (Bitcoind then crashes) | 14:14 |
| OP_NULL | scoobysnacking: #bitcoin-dev | 14:15 |
| kanzure | or #bitcoin | 14:15 |
| scoobysnacking | asked in both, thanks | 14:16 |
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| gmaxwell | petertodd: I wonder if we should add a citation to https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-trans-rfc6962-bis-04 when its finally published to the comment in bitcoin core that tells people to not immitate the merkle tree. | 14:56 |
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| dgenr8 | justanotheruser: A miner has to believe that about 5% will delay, to rationally give up on including double-spends worth .03 BTC | 17:18 |
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| dgenr8 | justanotheruser: (He does have to believe that 62% will delay a block, to decide not to build on it) | 17:18 |
| dgenr8 | justanotheruser: If 5% start to delay - regardless of the cost to themselves - rationally everyone will exclude double-spends | 17:18 |
| dgenr8 | justanotheruser: This lowers the cost of delaying to 0, since now nothing has to be delayed | 17:19 |
| dgenr8 | justanotheruser: Now, everyone is willing to delay, and it should be easy to convince 62% to do so, which then takes you straight to 100% | 17:19 |
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| * nsh shakes head | 17:36 | |
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| dgenr8 | this is something everyone wants for the network, it's just been difficult to find a way to get there. | 18:40 |
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| justanotheruser | dgenr8: Forcing reorgs is expensive for miners and dangerous for the network. I don't see how incentivizing miners to do this is a realistic solution. | 19:30 |
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| Luke-Jr | dgenr8: excluding double-spends is ridiculous | 19:58 |
| Luke-Jr | dgenr8: you realise all you're saying is "kill fungibility"? | 19:58 |
| Luke-Jr | all of a sudden those UTXOs are no longer spendable ever | 19:59 |
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| dgenr8 | Luke-Jr: the first spend can be confirmed, and it can be replaced after Tmax (say 120 minutes) | 20:01 |
| Luke-Jr | dgenr8: there is no first spend | 20:01 |
| Luke-Jr | "first" requires ordering. which is what miners do. | 20:03 |
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| dgenr8 | This does not assume global ordering. It shows that local ordering creates the desired results, if you include a big (relative to propagation times) safety margin | 20:22 |
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| dgenr8 | justanotheruser: delaying allows miners to incentivize other miners, at some possible risk to themselves, but without breaking bitcoin. | 20:56 |
| dgenr8 | i think it can work if the overall goal is shared widely (as with deprecating empty blocks) | 20:56 |
| dgenr8 | in the particular case of double-spend protection, it is admittedly dependent on a change to all nodes, to relay double spends | 20:57 |
| Luke-Jr | dgenr8: it does assume global ordering, because if there is any significant penalty, no miner will touch it | 20:57 |
| Luke-Jr | dgenr8: I don't recall you finding a way to sanely relay double spends yet? | 20:57 |
| justanotheruser | dgenr8: How do you define a delay? Miners consider the block invalid for 1 minute? | 20:58 |
| dgenr8 | justanotheruser: until 1 block is mined on top of it | 20:59 |
| Luke-Jr | lol | 21:00 |
| Luke-Jr | that's even worse than a delay | 21:00 |
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| justanotheruser | dgenr8: ok, so I just have to mine a block on top of it... not sure what disincentive there is to do that | 21:01 |
| Luke-Jr | now instead of 6 blocks to confirm, you have to wait 10 | 21:01 |
| justanotheruser | why would I mine on the old block if there is a new block that my fork would have to beat? | 21:01 |
| Luke-Jr | and yes, it does in fact break bitcoin because you can no longer double spend | 21:02 |
| dgenr8 | justanotheruser: you may be the only one building on it | 21:02 |
| justanotheruser | dgenr8: maybe, but if I do build on it then my block is valid | 21:02 |
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| dgenr8 | yes, but as we discussed earlier, the incentive is aimed at the guy who risked the delay | 21:03 |
| justanotheruser | the rest of the network is at a disadvantage, they are 99% trying to make 2 blocks in the time I am trying to make 1 block. | 21:04 |
| dgenr8 | they will win in that setup | 21:04 |
| dgenr8 | that is the crux of it though | 21:04 |
| justanotheruser | they will win a good amount of the time | 21:04 |
| justanotheruser | but their return per hash will be less than mine | 21:04 |
| justanotheruser | so the smart miners will follow what the 1% is doing and mine on top of the delayed block, effectively removing the delay | 21:05 |
| dgenr8 | Luke-Jr: having your block delayed is a significant penalty, so you may think twice about touching a double-spend | 21:07 |
| Luke-Jr | dgenr8: what you're talking about isn't a delay, it's a 51% attack | 21:08 |
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| dgenr8 | Luke-Jr: No, it's a 6.9% incentivization. Do read through it if you have time. | 21:08 |
| Luke-Jr | sorry, already wasting enough time on discussing stupid ideas | 21:10 |
| dgenr8 | Luke-Jr: thanks for discussing it | 21:11 |
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| Luke-Jr | the nice thing about your idea is that as long as the majority of miners are sane, they don't even *have* to try to 51% the idiots - it's just automatic :D | 21:12 |
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| dgenr8 | Luke-Jr: i don't think anybody else is as committed to mining double-spends as you are | 21:15 |
| Luke-Jr | dgenr8: try petertodd | 21:15 |
| Luke-Jr | anyhow, my point was that miners don't have to be committed to keeping Bitcoin usable - resistance to your proposal is the default/automatic | 21:16 |
| dgenr8 | these are folks who are worried about a few seconds of block propagation time. and my data shows they aren't interested in including double-spends anyway. | 21:23 |
| Luke-Jr | which is all irrelevant | 21:29 |
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| OP_NULL | dgenr8: "aren't interested in including double spends" is a weird phrase. cex.io's pool were rather keen on it for a certain portion of time. what are you using to distinguish a "double spend"? | 21:39 |
| dgenr8 | the green boxes here http://respends.thinlink.com are where miner included the first one seen by my node, despite higher fees | 21:40 |
| OP_NULL | what you saw first isn't always what the miner saw first though. what you think is an unsuccessful double spend could really be a successful one. | 21:42 |
| dgenr8 | sure | 21:43 |
| OP_NULL | is there a reason that website only has two columns for alternate transactions? | 21:43 |
| dgenr8 | alternate? | 21:45 |
| dgenr8 | tx1 includes the whole cohort that is invalidated by tx2. different inputs, and all dependent txes | 21:46 |
| OP_NULL | you have tx1, tx2, what prevents somebody from spending an output in 50 different ways? | 21:46 |
| dgenr8 | another tx2 will get another row. so there can be duplication in the tx1's. adding the amount colums may be misleading. it doesn't seem to happen that much though. | 21:48 |
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| dgenr8 | actually the reason for that is because the bitcoind branch its running tracks only one tx2 per coin | 21:50 |
| OP_NULL | I toyed with the idea of pushing a unique transaction to every node in the network and seeing which one ended up in a block. | 21:52 |
| dgenr8 | cool, then repeat it a thousand times and you'd learn a lot ;) | 21:53 |
| Luke-Jr | "not interested in double spends" does not mean the miners are willing to attack Bitcoin in order to try to prevent them | 21:54 |
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| Luke-Jr | so your statistics are irrelevant | 21:55 |
| dgenr8 | satoshi was attacking bitcoin pretty hard then. he really wanted to prevent double-spends | 21:55 |
| dgenr8 | he called this a "2.0 problem" btw | 21:55 |
| OP_NULL | part of the point is that miners are just as blind as to what constitutes a double spend as everybody else. if you could evaluate what was canon there's be no need for a block chain in the first place. | 21:56 |
| Luke-Jr | (also, the statistics just demonstrate miner laziness more than anything) | 21:56 |
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| dgenr8 | OP_NULL: what i explored is how well nodes will agree on ordering after a long time relative to tx propagation. | 21:58 |
| Luke-Jr | nodes are very good on agreeing on ordering when nobody is trying to double spend. | 21:59 |
| Luke-Jr | and no, today's "attempts" that I've seen do not count as trying. | 22:00 |
| dgenr8 | well that 18BTC one is outside 2h anyway | 22:01 |
| phantomcircuit | Luke-Jr, would you like to see a zero mining power attempt | 22:02 |
| phantomcircuit | i'll do it against myself for kicks | 22:02 |
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| Luke-Jr | phantomcircuit: I don't particularly care to see it in practice, but maybe dgenr8 would since he seems to think he can stop them | 22:03 |
| phantomcircuit | i'd have to start up the log all the things server though | 22:03 |
| phantomcircuit | which generates like 8GB/day of log files | 22:03 |
| Luke-Jr | lol | 22:03 |
| OP_NULL | dgenr8: I read that, but I'm not really convinved. not only because I don't think there's more than 2 degrees of separation between most nodes. | 22:04 |
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| phantomcircuit | Luke-Jr, and that's deduplicated with compression | 22:04 |
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| phantomcircuit | it would probably be more now actually since it would get spv client connections with unique bloom filters | 22:05 |
| dgenr8 | OP_NULL: what I mean is, if two txes are transmitted 30s apart, only .09% of nodes will disagree with the majority | 22:06 |
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| OP_NULL | dgenr8: where does that number come from? | 22:09 |
| Luke-Jr | dgenr8: a real double spend transmits the "second" spend first. | 22:09 |
| dgenr8 | OP_NULL: the bitcoinstats numbers are well modeled by a lognormal distribution. then i computed a derived distribution for the difference of two of those. | 22:10 |
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| OP_NULL | dgenr8: things get stickier if you are up against somebody doing it intentionally. you can abuse pool rules and relay rules to tweak those values to your advantage. | 22:14 |
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| OP_NULL | if the target is running 0.8 and most pools are running 0.9, you can pevent them from ever seeing a particular transaction by abusing the dust relay defaults in the two versions. | 22:14 |
| dgenr8 | yeah, there's not much you can do to make your tx go faster. you can make it slow though. which will make nodes see it as pretty late. | 22:15 |
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| OP_NULL | with the block slowing rule you could abuse that to cause certain pools blocks to often be orphaned. | 22:17 |
| dgenr8 | block slowing rule? | 22:18 |
| OP_NULL | the thing you proposed. | 22:18 |
| dgenr8 | you mean the pools that like to include double-spends aged > 30s? | 22:19 |
| OP_NULL | no, you could prevent a pool from seeing a transaction at all by abusing dust rules, and then their block would likely be orphaned as a result. | 22:20 |
| dgenr8 | you mean the dust rate-limiter? | 22:23 |
| OP_NULL | there's a free transaction limiter. dust is rejected outright. | 22:23 |
| dgenr8 | how could that be used selectively? | 22:24 |
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| OP_NULL | different versions have different defaults, some have user altered configurations. | 22:25 |
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| dgenr8 | i see. good point. justanotheruser: going to sleep on your last comment. | 22:25 |
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| OP_NULL | dgenr8: the more I think about it, the worse that rule becomes for the miners. there's an obvious incentive for them to subvert that rule either by private peering or alternate networks. | 22:51 |
| OP_NULL | you can also do an easy finney attack with it too. if I’m "holding" a block and I know that peer X hasn’t seen it yet, I can send them a transaction that spends an output already spent in my held block. they won’t see any double spends because all of their peers think it’s spending an invalid output. | 22:52 |
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